EPISODE 467: Successful Selling Without Selling Out and Andy Paul

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[EDITOR’S NOTE: This is a replay of the Creativity in Sales virtual learning session sponsored by the Institute for Excellence in Sales on January 17. 2022. It featured an awesome interview with Andy Paul, the author of “Sell Without Selling Out.”]

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ANDY’S TIP: “Keep reading. As a podcaster you might think I’d say listen to podcasts. I think it’s great. Please listen to this podcast, listen to my podcast but I still think reading is the most effective way to learn because you’re exposed in a medium where people have to lay out a comprehensive cohesive argument. I think if you want to be influenced to learn new things and adopt new perspectives, that’s the best way. Whether it’s in sales or whether it’s to Fred’s point, the one we talked about earlier, it’s about the world around us, it’s biographies of great people and what they’ve achieved. I love to read and still read history. Just keep reading and keep learning.”


Fred Diamond: Andy, it’s great to have you here. Again, the new book Sell Without Selling Out. It’s very refreshing. Here’s my copy for people who are watching us live.

Andy Paul: I dropped mine on the floor.

Fred Diamond: [Laughs] There you go. It’s a very thoughtful book. We’re going to be talking in detail about some of the things that you mentioned today. By the way, I have an extra copy or two. If you’re listening to this show and you want a copy, reach out to me and I’ll be happy to get one to you. It’s very thoughtful for a number of different reasons, Andy. You’ve done so many, close to 1,000. Have you done over 1,000 yet podcasts?

Andy Paul: Yeah, we’re on our way to number two, yes.

Fred Diamond: Good for you. We got The Accelerate with Andy Paul. Of course, I was a guest on that back in like 2017 and of course Sales Enablement with Andy Paul. You can read more about Andy at andypaul.com. You basically were one of the guys who invented the sales podcast. You were one of the first ones out of the gate. I mean, you didn’t invent podcasting. That was Al Gore, I believe. No, but seriously, you were one of the first guys out there with the show and you’ve tackled this and a lot of people like me have tried to emulate and follow your lead. The book is fantastic for a couple of different reasons. It’s real and it’s focused on getting real, essentially. It’s focused on being a human being in the sales process. Talk about that for a little bit. Talk about why did you feel the time was right to write this book?

Andy Paul: Well, I think it’s one of those things where the time’s been right forever but it seems like we’ve gotten worse in several dimensions in sales. Perhaps some of this is amplified by the way that some sellers are choosing to use the technology at our disposal. There’s all these outward signs, you see these data points saying at a time when we should be getting a lot better at this, we’re not. Fewer reps attaining quota, we got reports from analyst firms saying win rates are dropping, close rates are dropping, no decision rates are up. Gartner coming out a year ago or so saying buyers just don’t want to talk to sellers anymore.

Read a book from Dr. Stephen Timme from Finlistics talking about 80% of C-level execs saying, “Get no value talking to sellers.” You look at that and say, “Well, why are we still dealing with this? Why is this still the case? Why is it getting worse?” I tried to address that. Part of it is what I call salesy behaviors that I label as selling out that are so embedded in what we do.

I think that increasingly so because as more and more managers decide to start to focus on the metrics of selling as opposed to developing their people, they’re encouraging more of these behaviors, more of these actions, as opposed to saying, “Look, how do I take a step back? How do I help each of my individuals become the best version of themselves?” The human side of things as we’ll get into, and that’s just not happening.

To Gartner’s point about buyers not wanting to talk to sellers, I don’t think that’s the case. I think, at heart, no buyer wakes up and says, “Oh, I want to be sold to today,” but they do want to talk to people that can help them get their job done. As a buyer at that moment, their job is, how do I make an informed decision about this purchase that will enable us to achieve a certain outcome? If you can help them do that, then yeah, they’ve got time for you. But unfortunately, the way so much of selling is conducted, it’s not to help them, it’s about getting something for us as a seller.

Fred Diamond: We started doing our podcast, the Sales Game Changers podcast two years before the pandemic. Then once the pandemic kicked in, we started doing a show every single day. One thing that’s become clear to us is it’s not about you. It’s always never really been about you but in some cases has been. It really has been about the customer. Here’s what even more critical. It’s not even about the customer, it’s about the customers’ customer, and the customers’ customer’s customer, because they are all faced with the same challenges that almost everybody on the planet is now faced with. Which is, how do we recover our business and come out of the pandemic the right way? Then how do we get our lives focused?

We know about The Great Resignation. We hear about people really making a decision how they want to live their lives these days. I just talked to another sales VP, I’m based here in DC, we’re doing today’s show with you, you’re down in Southern California. He just told me that he moved to Michigan to be closer to family. His parents are getting older. Michigan, ladies and gentlemen. We talked about that. Of course, you started your career at Burroughs, and you talk about a lot of the examples that you had first getting initiated into sales. Andy, even back then, you felt it wasn’t quite right.

Andy Paul: Yeah. I certainly wasn’t alone in that but for me personally, the way that they were training sellers was all about putting on this act of being salesy. This image of the stereotypical salesperson. The hail-fellow-well-met, the extrovert type. I thought, that’s not me. Am I going to have to be that way to have a career in sales? I determined that I didn’t need to be, and that I could find my own path by listening to a lot of different sources. That time I was listening to a lot of cassette tape. Earl Nightingale and people like that talking, Zig Ziglar, and reading books, and learning from peers and managers.

Actually, for me, one of the biggest influences on learning how to sell from a human perspective was my customers. If you listen to your customers and really make an effort to understand what’s important to them, they’ll teach you how to sell to them. I thought there had to be a better way. I was fortunate enough to have bosses early on that by and large, not all of them, by and large said, “Yeah, I really don’t care how you get it done.” I mean, ethically and so, you want to do the right things. We have this framework of how you want to operate.

But in general, when I got started in sales you were told, hey, your territory, your patch, your list of accounts, your line of business. I sold the construction industry. You’re the CEO of that business. We’re going to be more hands-off in terms of how you generate the results. Again, as long as you’re operating ethically and so on within the framework of what we describe, but you have a lot of latitude about how to get that job done.

Current generations of sales leaders take that latitude away from sellers and try to make it more cookie cutter. The results have been what we’re seeing, is that people, when they’re robbed of the autonomy to become the best version of themselves, when they have no agency over the choices they make about how to sell, they’re not as productive, they’re not as creative, they’re more likely to burn out more rapidly, and they churn from the job.

Fred Diamond: Whenever salespeople ask me for advice I always say, you might be working for this particular company today, but you’re basically the CEO of your career. How do you manage your career? How do you direct it, etc.? Andy, I’m going to ask you a question. We’re going to start getting detailed into the book here. I’ve never asked this question before, but you see it all over social media.

You talk a lot in your book about your early days and some of the training and you just gave some allusions to it. I’m going to put you on the spot here. What would you tell the Andy Paul who just started at Burroughs? You started your career in sales. You’ve had great success. You mention in the book how you’ve sold things all over the world, every continent, the exception of Antarctica. I’m just curious, what will be the bit of advice? I’ve never asked this question before. What would be the one bit of advice you would give the young Andy Paul who was just starting out his sales career?

Andy Paul: First, I’d probably go back a few years before and tell Andy Paul, study engineering. That’s probably one thing. I spent my whole life in technical sales as a history major.

Fred Diamond:  I was a history major as well.

Andy Paul: I can pick up the technology. I’m good knowledge-wise from a lay person’s perspective. Things I sold would have really helped if I’d been an engineer. That’s one bit of advice. Not that there’s anything wrong with being a history major, that’s helped too. I think the other thing is, it’s just curiosity. Constantly learn. For me, I think one thing that’s helped me succeed at early stages as I like to say, I came out of college. I was 21, I looked 16 and I was selling computer systems, fit into the construction industry. No idea why anybody ever bought from me really upfront or why they even gave me the time.

I got this great education from these entrepreneurs and these CEOs that were willing to invest their time in me. I think it’s because I was sincerely interested in learning about what was important to them and how I could help them. I think if you have that attitude, I think that’s the place to start. Maybe I was naturally thrust on that path because I’m not naturally a real extroverted person. I’m in the middle between introversion and extroversion. So I leaned into me, the strengths I had.

Fred Diamond: One of the things you talked about in the book is curiosity, and you just mentioned that a few moments ago. That comes up a lot. Actually, I was a history major as well, and went on to get a master’s in Business and went to work for McGraw Hill Publishing. As a history major, you want to know why. You do want to understand, why did this happen? Why did that happen which led to this event happening today? What happened 300, 400 years ago that led to things today? That’s a natural way to be curious.

Let’s talk about curiosity because you do bring that up in the book. Discuss that. You also talk about it in the context of asking questions. A lot of times on the Sales Game Changers podcast we talk about the right way to ask questions. I just want to say one quick thing. Customers do want to talk to you if you’re going to help them achieve their goals. If you have some insights, if you have some ideas, and we’re going to be talking about value in a little bit. But first, let’s tackle curiosity in the context of asking the right questions.

Andy Paul: Well, I think too often sellers think, okay, I’ve got if not a formal script, I’ve developed a script of questions that I ask and they’re encouraged to do that. Because if you look at many of these modern sales processes, there’s this box that says discovery, and there’s these things called exit criteria for your discovery box. I’m like, you can’t exit from the discovery stage because you are always asking questions. You’re never stopping discovery.

Unfortunately, for most sellers, today that’s what they do. They say, well, I’ve got my 10, 12, 20 questions, whatever they have and so I gather this information but I never go deeper than that. They say, okay, I’ve asked my questions, I can now exit discovery. But the point is, what do you really understand about the buyer at that point in time? You may assume you have this knowledge you’ve accumulated, but it all fits within this tiny little box, and you’re assuming the customer’s coloring inside the lines and they’re usually not.

They need your help to understand their challenges. That’s why you’re there, to help them understand their challenges. There to help them understand what they potentially could achieve in terms of outcomes. The way you trigger them to think about that is through the questions you ask. It’s not the statements of fact you make or it’s not the insights that you necessarily share. I think you trigger buyers to insights with the questions you ask.

Fred Diamond:  The other aspect of this and you touched on this when I asked you if you could talk to the young Andy Paul and you said, I would tell him to go into engineering. When people ask me as well, what can I be doing to be very successful in sales? One thing I say is you got to learn the customer’s marketplace.

It’s great to ask the right questions but you can’t be asking the questions, what are the challenges you’re facing? You should know that by understanding their market, by doing the research into their market, by having that level of curiosity to understand not just what my customer is dealing with, but what the whole industry is doing. Every day, 7 by 24 your customer is saying, how do I solve these problems to help my customers in my industry?

Andy Paul: Well, I think it’s a struggle for sellers in general to develop the underlying business acumen which is really I think what you’re talking about and have these conversations with their buyers. I hearken back to my father. I asked him what good business advice he’d give, read the Wall Street Journal every day. I’m not a fan of the editorial but from the news perspective, it’s a business education. You just scan the paper. I do it online the last 20 years, but it’s still every day. Part of my day is Wall Street Journal. Scan what’s going on. Read some articles in depth. Sign up for alerts on certain topics.

It’s just being interested and engaged and curious about what’s happening. You form this bigger picture of what’s going on in the world, then what’s going on in the world that might be affecting the customer and their markets and their businesses. Having that broader perspective and bringing it down more narrowly is really important as a seller. You just can’t operate in this vacuum that says, hey, I’ve got this product and I’m going to sell it to you and you’re my target, as opposed to, you exist in this bigger ecosystem, what’s going on in this ecosystem?

Fred Diamond: Related to that, I want to ask you this question. I talked about this last week with one of my Sales Game Changers podcast guest. We have a lot of junior sales professionals who listen to the Sales Game Changers podcast because they’re looking for insights from people like Andy Paul, the author of Sell Without Selling Out. Andy, help our listeners understand what customers want. They don’t necessarily want a great deal or 10% off. What do they want? We talked before about how they have problems to solve. Give us some of your insights. What’s going on in the mind of the customer as our sales professionals listening today are engaging with them?

Andy Paul: Well, we’ll start addressing on two levels. Level one is, what is the buyer’s job? When somebody is given the task to go buy something or a group of people, what are they trying to accomplish? This is really important for sellers to keep in mind. I’ve tried to simplify it in the book. What your buyer’s trying to do is they’re trying to quickly gather and make sense of the information they need to make an informed decision with the least investment of their time and attention possible. Just break that down.

They need your help to gather the information. They need to make a decision. They need your help to make sense of it. They want to do this without investing a ton of their time and attention. No one sets out to make a purchase decision saying, let’s spend a year on this even though we could get it done in three months. I don’t know about you, Fred, but when I have something on my to-do list, my imperative is to get that done and off my to-do list. This is what your buyers want as well. As a seller, you have to keep that in mind. This is what they want you to do to help them accomplish their job.

Fred Diamond: I want to move to another word that we use a lot on the Sales Game Changers podcast. Again, we’re talking today with Andy Paul, the author of Sell Without Selling Out. Andy, the V word, value. We talk about value all the time. One of the first guests we ever had at the Institute for Excellence in Sales of which you were a guest speaker a couple of years ago, was the great Neil Rackham who wrote SPIN Selling. I remember him very clearly, it was the second event we ever did. He said sales is all about value creation. Let’s get a little bit deep here about value. You devote one of the first couple chapters in the book about what value means from the customer perspective. Give us some of your insights on that.

Andy Paul: Again, like everything else, try to simplify it for people. I think for a buyer, value means progress. If you’re able to help the buyer make progress toward making their decision during one of your interactions you have with them, then that has value for them because they’re trying to get the job done. Now that value can come in one of many forms. It could come in as a question that you ask. It could be a commercial insight you provide. It could be a piece of content you share. Could be them talking with one of your other customers. But it’s something that as a result of their investment of time and attention in you, they’re closer to making a decision.

This becomes the baseline definition. As a seller, your obligation is to say, okay, every time I interact with a buyer, it doesn’t matter whether it’s a phone call, a video call or in person, email, you’re asking them to invest their time and attention in you. What are they going to get from that that’s going to help them move closer to making a decision? You have to be very intentional about saying, okay. I have what I call in the book, a value plan for this interaction. This value plan has two components. One is, what does the buyer need from me in this interaction to make this progress? And as a result of me giving them this value, what steps are they committing to take next?

As a sales leader, if you’re doing a deal review or a pipeline review, and you’re going through each opportunity in the pipeline with a seller, the seller should be able to answer that question. What value does this customer need from us at this point in time to make progress towards making a decision and what are they going to do as a result of receiving that value? If the seller can’t answer it, they’re not in a position to interact with the buyer again. They have to go back and keep asking questions to make sure they uncover what they really need from us at this point in time.

Fred Diamond: It goes back to everything you talk about in the book, which is the fact that it really is about the customer. You talked about sales as a profession many, many times but the only reason why sale is a profession is because there are customers who need something from us to help them achieve the goals. Andy, one of the other words you talk about is generosity. It’s really interesting. We’re doing today’s interview in January of 2020.

Andy Paul: 2022, actually.

Fred Diamond: Oh my God. I have to get that edited out which I won’t do. Seriously, 2022, and we’re right in the middle of another surge here that’s going on, the Omicron surge. The reason I bring it up is a lot of words have come into the sales lexicon like generosity, vulnerability, authenticity, transparency. Talk about, what does it mean to be generous and why did you give it a whole chapter about the word generosity in your book?

Andy Paul: Well, I think that there’s a bad name oftentimes given to people who are considered givers in sales. I’ve sat through presentations by top analysts that have said, “Being givers is bad.” I really like the work of Adam Grant in his book, Give and Take where he talks about his various personality types, givers, takers, matchers. What Grant talks about is if you were to stack rank the most effective employees, at the bottom would indeed be a giver. Next up is a taker, meaning they take more than they give from people. The next up was matchers because they match what they give and take, but at the top again, we’re givers.

It really struck when I’d read that because it really aligned with what I thought and had to experience was that, it’s okay to have an agenda with a buyer and make sure the buyer is aware of that. I use the word being a giver with an agenda which is, hey, I’m here to help you, but if I help you I’m not hiding it. I help myself as well but I’m motivated more by helping you. Certainly, Zig Ziglar paraphrase his expression in the book, if you help enough people in life get what they want, you’ll get what you want. That’s okay.

It’s being transparent about those motivations, helps build trust with the buyer. If you’re upfront, that’s like, hey, I’m here to help you. I’m going to do what it takes to help you. I’m going to give meaningful value to you and I’m not going to hide it. I’ve got a goal to meet, and I’ve got a quota to meet, but you come first. The buyers, they’re good with that. There’s no illusion while you’re there.

Fred Diamond: Absolutely, they know exactly. That’s a great point too. We’re not talking about charity. I have to tell people this all the time that, you’re not a charity, you’re a for-profit organization. Almost everybody who’s a member of the Institute for Excellence in Sales and professional selling. Here’s the other thing too. Do you think, Andy that one of the reasons why sales managers are struggling is because of the short term nature of measurement?

Again, we’ve had some guests on the Sales Game Changers podcast who have been with their company for 20, 30 years. Tamara Greenspan at Oracle, Courtney Bromley with IBM. They were both there for 30 years. One thing that struck me as we’re doing the podcast is that they’ve had relationships with their customers for 20, 30 years. Because one thing that a lot of salespeople don’t realize is even though you may consider jumping from place to place, if it makes sense, customers don’t want to lose their job.

If you’re in operations or finance or accounting, you probably don’t want to jump into a different job. You probably want to have the stability. Maybe something in your life will cause you to rethink or whatever, but it’s hard if you’re a director of finance or accounting or IT to move from company to company. You lose your benefits and that’s why people like to have those kinds of jobs. I’m just curious. Do you think that plays into some of the antithetical thinking about what you’re talking about?

Andy Paul: Oh yeah, absolutely. I think that one of the real things that’s a barrier to culture change in sales is the short termism. If the average tenure of a CRO is roughly 18 months, that’s just barely more than one business cycle. You’re talking about bringing in their people, trying to change processes, trying to build a new culture. You can imagine the thinking that goes on with some of these people that take these jobs and say, “Look, that’s a tradeoff I’m just not willing to make.” I know what the right thing to do is but I really don’t to try to hold on to this job, so we’re just going to see if we can do more of what we’re doing now except do it better.

The trouble is that more of what we’re doing now isn’t leading to better. If you look at SaaS for instance in general, the win rates across SaaS, 20%. You’re winning about one on a five of your most qualified opportunities. Some are less than that, some are a little bit more than that, but think about that. Culturally, we’re putting salespeople into a position where the experience of the buyers are so bad with you that you can only win one out of every five of your opportunities. As a sales leader, what habit are you forming in your sellers? You’re forming the habit of losing. If you’re only winning one of every five, the thing you’re getting the most practice in is losing.

Fred Diamond: That’s an interesting point. I always thought it was much lower because you see so much of these, what we call the click-and-connect on LinkedIn where someone connects to you, then it’s like, can I show you a demo? Or, I want to be transparent, I’m connecting with you because I want to show you a demo. Well, I have 0.0 interest in seeing your demo. I want to hit two other things you talk about in the book. You talk about the secret sales accelerator. What is that and how does that play into this?

Andy Paul: I think it’s really important for sellers to understand what buyers again are trying to accomplish. The first level was, hey, they need your help to quickly gather and make sense of information to make a good decision at the least investment of their time and attention. But then when they’re in the process, what are they trying to achieve? Unfortunately, most sellers think what buyers are trying to do is make the best decision. All the research out there shows and Herbert Simon, Nobel Prize winning economist, first among them says, yeah, that’s not the case. What they’re trying to do is they’re trying to make the good-enough decision.

Simon uses the words the satisficed decision, meaning that someone will look, do their investigation, do their research until they find a solution that satisfies the requirements, and suffices to enable them to achieve their desired outcome. Combine those two words, conjoin those two words into satisfice. That’s the very definition of a good-enough decision. The first time I experienced it, I was pretty early in my career it was mind blowing, like, what just happened? I walked away saying, I think I’ve got this deal. I’m not sure I know why. You could just tell the customer, the flip switched and it’s like, oh.

I spent a lot of time really thinking about this early in my career about what’s going on here. What I found is that, if I focus on front loading the value of a deal to be able to enable the customer to quickly gather the information and make sense of it, if the customer could buy into my vision of what success was for them before others had presented it, then my odds of winning the business went up substantially. What I talk about in the book is, how do you do that? What are these milestones in a sales process? Using the selling in pillars I talk about that enable you to help the buyer reach that point where they go, oh yeah, this is good enough.

Because the calculation that buyers make is, again, there’s a counterpart to the satisfice that’s called a maximizer and some people are maximized where by and large we’re going to be dealing with satisficers. What they’re saying is a marginal return we get on the incremental investment of our time isn’t worth it. We’re not going to find a solution that’s that much better by spending more time, so this is good enough. The thing that people have to keep in mind, this is a preamble in the book is everybody talks about decisions being emotionally driven and so on. True, but this is a purely rational decision.

Fred Diamond: Andy, before I ask you for your final action step – that’s how we typically like to wind down the Sales Game Changers podcast – I do have one more question for you from the book. This was a great part of the book. You talk about the essential question that we all need to be able to answer for anyone and that question is, why you? Why did you put that in the book? Talk a little bit about that before we get to your final action step.

Andy Paul: I put that in the book because it’s certainly been my experience and it’s been research substantiate. First and foremost, the buyers decisions are based on their experience and their interactions with you as a human, as an individual. There was a Gartner study that had come out sometime in the last 10 years talking about even from a trust formation standpoint, the most important element of trust is with the individual seller more so than the company they work for.

This is a question everybody asks in every scenario. It’s not just in sales but it’s like, why should I work with you? Why should I trust you? Why should I invest my time in you? I could go down the list of questions. I have them in the book, but start with the word why and end with the word you and they’re all why you? You have to be conscious about that experience you’re creating for the buyer of you. That starts with the first impressions you make with them. Are you really being intentional about creating a positive first impression with them? Because that’s going to dictate what happens subsequent to that.

One example that I briefly mention in the book you see all the time is, this comes primarily from young male sellers. “Hey, buddy, thank you for your time.” I’m like, okay. You’re calling the 55-year-old CEO of a customer buddy or pal? It grits some people, and people think it’s not important. We’re in a business where everything is important. You have to consider every touch important. You can’t slack off for a moment because you don’t know what’s most important to the buyer.

Fred Diamond: I had someone who’s a junior sales professional who LinkedIned to me and he posted something with the F word. I said, you’re done, buddy, because exactly what you just said. The customer could be a middle-aged professional and he’s been doing this job for 30 some odd years, or a woman, or whatever it might be and you really do need to be conscious of how you’re impacting. Because they’re not always going to give you some coaching, hey, don’t put the F word in your LinkedIn post. I say buddy too sometimes but it’s to friends like to you, but I would never say to a prospect, hey, buddy, thanks for your time or bro or dude. It’s just ridiculous, man. Even something else, I would tell people, “Call me Mr. Diamond.”

Andy Paul: Use someone’s name. That’s the easiest. If you want to connect with people and make them feel good is, use their name in a conversation instead of buddy. “Hey, Fred.” Works wonders. I posted a year ago or so on LinkedIn, this post about I’m not your buddy and went through this whole thing about why this was problematic. The most defensive people are young male sales professional saying, “What are you talking about? No one cares.” I was like, people care. Don’t make the assumption that because you don’t care, they don’t care. That’s part of what can make you effective in sales is assuming nothing. Take nothing for granted.

Fred Diamond: The thing too is that, you devoted your life as have I to the sales profession. One thing that we learned at the beginning of the pandemic was there weren’t necessarily a whole lot of transactions happening like there might have been before. If you’re a sales professional, what does a sales professional do? If you’re a professional golfer and you’re locked down, you’re working on your putting or you’re going to the driving range. If you’re a sales professional, you’re studying your customers’ marketplace.

Another little one before I ask you for your final action step is, if you’re invited to a Zoom call, get on the call three minutes ahead of time. Don’t get on at 1:03, 1:04. Get on three minutes ahead of time, take care of your stuff and get ready and make sure that your technology works. Andy, I just want to acknowledge you again.

Andy Paul: Thank you, Fred.

Fred Diamond: You’ve written so many things. You’ve influenced so many sales professionals in the profession, and we just touched on some of that, so kudos for you. Kudos for the new book. It’s nice, it’s fresh, it’s a different angle and you’ve gotten a lot of nice comments here from some of our peers in the industry. As we like to end every Sales Game Changers podcast, give us one specific thing, something that everybody listening to today should do right now to take their sales career to the next level.

Andy Paul: Keep reading. As a podcaster you might think I’d say listen to podcasts. I think it’s great. Please listen to this podcast, listen to my podcast but I still think reading is the most effective way to learn because you’re exposed in a medium where people have to lay out a comprehensive cohesive argument. I think if you want to be influenced to learn new things and adopt new perspectives, that’s the best way. Whether it’s in sales or whether it’s to Fred’s point, the one we talked about earlier, it’s about the world around us, it’s biographies of great people and what they’ve achieved. I love to read and still read history. Just keep reading and keep learning.

Transcribed by Mariana Badillo

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