EPISODE 598: How to Create Sales Relationships on the Golf Course with Cindy Miller

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Find Cindy on LinkedIn. She’s a professional golfer on the Legends Tour. Visit her site.

CINDY’S TIP:  “Google something about how do I learn how to play golf? Have the courage to get off the nail and learn to play the game. Google something, golf etiquette. Go read that. If you don’t have time to take a lesson, go learn all about the etiquette. I dare you.”


Fred Diamond: Cindy, I’m excited to talk to you for a whole bunch of different reasons. You were introduced to us by my good friend, Tommy Schaff and we talked about baseball when I did the show with him. You’re listed as one of the LPGA’s Top 50 Women Teachers in the World. You’re a former professional golf player. I guess you’re still technically a professional, right?

Cindy Miller: I am. Yeah, I’m on the Legends Tour.

Fred Diamond: Good for you. As people who listen to the Sales Game Changers Podcast know, I sometimes like to geek out when I have athletes and people who come from high performance worlds. We’re going to be talking today about the four things you need to know, you must know, before you accept the invitation to play in a corporate golf event. I’ll tell you why this topic was intriguing to me. I already mentioned, one, I love talking to athletes about what it’s like to be in the game, the mindset, and we’ll get to that. But we run a very successful global Women in Sales program. We have a couple of things that we do, Cindy.

We have our Premier Women in Sales Employer, where we recognize some of the top women in sales companies for women to work in sales at. We also have our International Women in Sales Leadership Forum. A lot of the stuff we talk about at the Leadership Forum is about how do you compete as a woman in sales in a man’s world, and golf comes up not infrequently. The question is, do I learn how to play golf so that I can   participate on the course, or do I just avoid it and just continue to deflect, and am I missing out by continuing to deflect and do things like that? Give us your first perspective. Again, we have a lot of women in sales listening today. Tell them why you believe it’s important for them to be proficient on the golf course, or at least to know their way around it.

Cindy Miller: Well, number one, you’re missing out. You could be building relationships, meeting new people. Where else do you get four hours to hang out with the right people at the right time and learn about them? You can find out if they’re honest, if they follow the rules, if they’re selfish. There’s so many things that you can learn about someone on the golf course, so please don’t be chicken. You have to learn how to play. You’re missing out on so many different opportunities. You may find that there’s people that you don’t want to do business with, and those that you do, so you can find your perfect customer.

Fred Diamond: I actually played golf at my high school team, and I really haven’t played as much over the years, but I’m still pretty proficient around the golf course. But there are times when I, I’m not going to say I swing and I miss, but I swing and I hit the ball three feet away type of a thing. What do you tell the people here who don’t want to look silly? They’re afraid to look silly, they’re afraid to embarrass themselves. They’ve never really learned how to play golf for whatever the reasons might be. What is your answer to that general first question?

Cindy Miller: Well, there’s four things that you need to know, and we’ll go into those, I’m sure. But number two is no one really cares how you play. They care how you act. That’s very, very true. If you are not proficient and you’re afraid, I try to teach people how to take little half swings just so you can bump the ball down the fairway. Once you know how to do that, you can miss it good. What I’ve learned in my own game is he or she who misses it best without getting too ticked off always wins. Learn to miss.

Fred Diamond: That’s a great point, the fact that people won’t remember how you play, unless you’re really, really good. I remember playing with some guys who were just absolutely phenomenal, but they just want to know how you act, which is actually a really important point. Talk a little bit, before we get into the four most important things you should do, about why you can create relationships on the golf course. You mentioned four hours. I don’t think I’ve ever finished a round in less than five, a corporate round. Talk about what are some things you could be talking about as you are on the course. For women, and men for that matter, who don’t know that, what is the opportunity to talk and when do you have the opportunity? Should you wait till the 18th hole? I’m just curious on how you should be from a relationship perspective on the golf course.

Cindy Miller: You absolutely do not talk about business while you’re on the golf course. Do not hound the person you’re playing with. You want to ask questions. What’s your favorite golf course? Where have you played before? Different things like that. You’re trying to find information out about them. The more you ask questions, the more you can learn. Number two is be observant. I would watch, do they follow the rules with who’s got the honor? Or do they walk up and want to hit the ball first on every hole? Do they walk in people’s line on the green or do they pay attention to others? Are they selfish? There’s so many things that you can be aware of. Do they replace their divots? Do they follow the rules? Do they drive their cart where they’re not supposed to drive the cart? Needless to say, number one thing for you is to find out what is the etiquette and where should I walk and how should I act? Then you can observe what they’re doing.

Fred Diamond: There’s so much about the game of golf, and as you’re saying this, it’s really coming clear. Like you just said, little things that you just mentioned, replace your divot. Basically for people who don’t know, you hit the ball, big mound of dirt comes up and it’s courtesy to take that mound and to place it back where it came from to keep the course good for the players coming back. Walking your line. Again, when someone’s getting ready to make a putt, do you go in the way, do you interfere? I’m thinking back to a lot of times that I’ve played golf in corporate settings with people who are senior to me. Let’s talk about that for a second.

I remember I played golf, it was 30 years ago, I worked at Apple Computer. I was in a foursome with a guy who was three levels above me. It was my first job. I was scared to death that I didn’t want to have a bad hit. I didn’t want to say the wrong thing. Talk about interacting on the golf course with not just customers, but people maybe who are a level or two above you, and what are some of your recommendations?

Cindy Miller: Again, the more you know the etiquette and the rules, the better you are and the more you can be aware of who doesn’t know the etiquette and the rules. You need to behave, you need to sit back and watch. You need to allow them to lead the way if they choose to lead the way. Let’s say, for example, you have a boss who’s a competitive control freak who wants to win, and you’re playing in a scramble. This guy wants to hit first every single time. What he’s showing you is basically he’s a jerk. You need to back off, don’t let him know he’s a jerk, but just put it in the back of your mind of, “Wow, this guy’s really selfish.”

Let’s say there’s another guy. I do a lot of DiSC training, the DiSC behavior assessment. There’s another person that never shuts up, that’s always late, that doesn’t know when they’re supposed to hit, that doesn’t pay attention to the yardage of how far you’ve got to go, and they always stand right behind you while you’re hitting just trying to be an annoyance. You should stand on the side so you’re not right behind somebody. And they talk the whole time you’re hitting. Again, be very aware that they may think they’re cool, but they have no idea what they’re doing. It’s almost like empathy. They have no idea, their emotional intelligence is nil. Well, you’re not going to change that, but you can be very aware of, “Wow, this person’s an idiot too.”

Then there’s the S, who’s the real shy, quiet, “Oh, that’s okay. You can hit first,” which is great. Those people are really pretty nice to play with. They don’t want to take a risk. If you’re playing in a scramble and you’re on a par five and there’s water, the D’s saying, “Oh, I’m going for it.” The S is saying, “Well, no, I think I’m going to lay up.” We would have that person hit first, so they put us in a safe place and then let the D go for it. Then the C takes forever to play because they’re very cautious and analytical, and shy, and quiet, and they have a pre-shot routine that takes forever. They can’t make a decision, “Well, I don’t know, should I do this? Or should I do that?” Again, you can observe and become very aware of their behavior style, how to communicate with them. It’s really important.

Fred Diamond: When I have lead performers, particularly from the sports world on the show, I like to talk a little bit about what it was like when you were at the peak of your game and when you’re in the midst of playing in a very important round. Again, you mentioned you’re on the Legends Tour. You also played on the general LPGA Tour. I know you played with some of the top players in the world. What is it like? We like to use the analogy to the sales process, when you’re out there at a big tournament and there’s thousands of people around, and you’re playing near the top and you got a shot of winning, talk about your mindset. I’m always curious about that. Obviously you’re a pro, so you have to get laser focused. Talk about what it’s like when you’re approaching the hole. Maybe you’re 100 yards from the hole and let’s say you’re within three shots on Sunday. What is your mind thinking? As a pro, how do you stay focused and how have you been able to stay focused?

Cindy Miller: Well, number one, you have to know yourself. Speaking of the DiSC assessment, I happen to be a high D, and an I. When I play golf Cindy’s way, I’m typically D-I. Sometimes when I get to a tournament, I turn into a C. We have this thing, name that witch, and my witch is Cynthia. Cynthia’s like, “Oh, wait, be careful. Oh my God, what are we doing?” I have learned, from all my years of playing and competing and teaching, that I am way better off when I’m pursuing rather than protecting. Which means I’m going for things if the situation leads itself to, “Yeah, you have a better chance of pulling this off than not pulling this off.” What’s the percentage?

Now, that being said, I have also learned that you cannot create an outcome, ever. The only way you create the outcome is by following the process. You got three holes left and you’re one shot up. Let’s say you’re leading, so that’s when you might turn into protect, like, “Uh-oh, don’t blow this.” Rather than, “This is not over yet.” I always pretend I’m behind and I have to pursue, so I don’t start to protect. Therefore, when you get to the 17th hole, and it’s a tight par four, and it’s really long and it’s the number one handicap hole on the course, and you start to get clenched butt cheeks, and you’re getting afraid, it’s like I have to slap Cynthia out of it and say, “Wait a minute. Where are we going? This is where we want to go. This is how we’re going to get there. What’s my pre-shot routine?” I walk behind the ball, I make sure I know where my target is. I walk in with my right hand on the club. I’m looking down the line with my right eye because I’m right eye dominant. I’m putting my arms on, I’m relaxing my arms, and then my swing thoughts. Some people think they don’t have swing thoughts. You have to have a swing thought, because otherwise Cynthia’s going to scream, “Look out for the water.” My swing thought, I happen to be a visual auditory, I pretend I’m spiked to the pole, swing, hinge, kill. You have to know whether you’re auditory, visual, or kinesthetic. Do you want to see it, feel it, or hear it?

Again, the more you know about you and the more you know about your customer- My tendency, because I’m a high D, is, “Wham-bam. Thank you, ma’am. Let’s let it rip.” When I have a customer that’s a high C, that’s very analytic, “Cindy, why did the ball do that? Cindy, why did this happen?” In my mind, I want to say, “Oh my God, shut up. You’re driving me crazy. Why are you asking me so many questions?” Well, what I say to them, I flip the switch, because it’s not about me, it’s about them, “Why don’t you make a list of all your questions so that we can get everything answered so you’re absolutely certain that we’re doing the right thing here?” It’s awareness.

Fred Diamond: Who are you being right now, Cindy or Cynthia?

Cindy Miller: Cindy.

Fred Diamond: Actually, I have a business coach as well and she had me create a couple of different personas to handle different situations. Let’s talk about that a little bit. Let’s talk about the plan. Again, most people that are listening to today’s show are probably not golf professionals. Again, a lot of the women that we deal with in the Women in Sales Leadership Forum and who are employees that are Premier Women in Sales Employers, they probably are nervous to hit the golf course for a bunch of reasons we just talked about. Talk about what the plan should be. Should they have a plan?

Let’s say they’re going to be on the course with customers, or let’s say they’re going to be on the course with partners probably. Usually a lot of the participation would be at events, charity type of event. Maybe you’ll bring a customer, maybe you’ll bring a partner. It’s interesting where you said you can’t determine the outcomes, but should you have a plan for that day that maybe necessarily doesn’t really revolve around the golf? It might be that I want to get another meeting with Joe who’s a partner A, and we’re going to happen to be together for the four hours. Do you recommend that, having a pre-golf day plan that you’re going to stick with and follow?

Cindy Miller: I’m always trying to build a relationship. It’s all about the people, but let’s pretend they’ve never played. They have to play in this event. Do you want it to be with a senior partner or with a customer?

Fred Diamond: Let’s say it’s with a customer.

Cindy Miller: Yeah, it’s better if it’s with a customer. I wouldn’t play unless I’ve had a couple of lessons. I would not accept the invitation if I don’t know the rules and the etiquette. Now I got to give a little plug. I created a course called From the Back Nine to the Boardroom. Email me, cindy@cindymillergolf.com, and take the course. It’s under 150 bucks, just to learn everything that you need to know. If you’ve taken a few lessons and you have this pre-shot routine that you do on every shot, and you can take a half swing and bunt it 100 yards down the fairway, that’s all you need to do. Depending on your athletic ability, you can do that with three lessons.

The other thing is, who are you playing with? What kind of clubs do you have? Know that you’re going to be watched, and if you’re playing with someone who is a golf fanatic, who’s a member at a private club, you might say, “Well, what’s your handicap?” Well, handicap is from 0 to 36. The lower the handicap, the better the player. Anybody that’s under a 10 is addicted to golf and they know a lot. If you show up with a used set of clubs with a bag that’s falling apart, and you’re trying to sell them a multimillion dollar package, don’t do that, because they’re going to know you don’t know what you’re doing. You follow?

Fred Diamond: Exactly. In the sales process, you want everything to go right. There’s going to be, of course, things that happen, but you can control that by doing, like you just said, the three lessons, and doing some research before you go on and removing some of the anxiety. You talked about the four things that you must know, and we probably talked around those to this point. Let’s just go through the four things. Let’s start with number one.

Cindy Miller: Speed. Do not be slow. Again, when you’re cautious, and you’re not sure what you’re doing, and you don’t have enough experience on the golf course, you’re going to tend to take too long. You get 40 seconds to hit the ball from when it’s your turn. The first thing you would ever play in is a scramble, or they call it best ball, but scramble is where we all hit the ball. You’re all going to be together. Make sure you don’t go first. They’re going to want you to go first because you’re going to be the worst player. The first couple of holes, let someone else go first. I would just say, “You know what? I want to make sure I know what I’m doing. You go first.” Then make sure you have a routine that doesn’t take more than 40 seconds. 20 seconds is better.

Fred Diamond: Actually, with the speed also comes preparation. We talk all the time on the Sales Game Changers Podcast about preparing. You mentioned the word scramble, then you mentioned the word best ball. If you don’t know, understand what the day’s going to look like, what the format is. I love the way you talked before, in the very beginning you mentioned etiquette right away. Know those things. You probably just take some of your courses with Cindy Miller. Go to cindymillergolf.com, or if you don’t have the time that morning, just go up on YouTube and just Google it, I guess. Number two, what’s number two?

Cindy Miller: No one cares how you play, they care how you act. Don’t get hammered. You can have a beer or two, one on the front, one on the back. Don’t get hammered. Don’t be an idiot. Don’t stand behind someone when they’re hitting. When you miss a shot, don’t, “Oh, I just missed it.” Again, if you’re a high I and you tend to talk a lot, just back away. Just act polite and get out of the way.

Fred Diamond: When we golf with our buddies, and you mentioned when Cynthia comes out, there’s probably the throwing of the club where it didn’t go exactly where you wanted. That’s okay with your buddies. I played a lot in high school and I have a lot of those memories are coming to me flushing through me right now. You probably have as well. Obviously, you reached the highest level, so you had such high expectations about yourself, but you’re right. You miss a bad shot, I love the way you just said, no one’s going to remember, unless you keep just doing ridiculous things. I like the way you said, if you stay a nice steady course, like a lot of retirees play, the five iron, and the putter, as long as you look competent and you’re dressed the part.

The other thing too, you mentioned drinking. We talk about this a lot. I tell people don’t drink at all in the business world. If you have any proclivity towards becoming a slightly different person, I reckon maybe a glass of wine at a banquet or something. But on the golf course, just FYI, the cart comes around with the beer. I would also say, if you’re hungry, have maybe a protein bar. Don’t need a meal on this tour as well. They’ll probably have sandwiches. You know what? Wait till you get done the nine holes or the 18 holes. What do you think?

Cindy Miller: I agree. I would not drink either. Again, I’ve played in so many Pro-Ams. I had a couple of girls that had never played before in Tucson and it was terrible.

Fred Diamond: Have a Gatorade or a water.

Cindy Miller: Yeah.

Fred Diamond: All right. Number three.

Cindy Miller: Number three, your playing partner. Be aware of who they are. Try to identify their behavior style. Learn to understand how to handle, I’m sure you’ve got that in your sales course. If there’s a high D, a high I, a C is not going to talk to you a lot. A C is not going to show any emotion. Don’t think it’s you, but be aware that they don’t want to talk. Don’t talk to them. Just be polite. Sometimes not communicating is the best way to communicate. But just be very aware.

Fred Diamond: You mentioned that before, you said don’t talk about the sale, don’t try to make the sale on the course. But it is a unique opportunity to be with a customer for a couple of hours. You’re going to be on a cart, so you’re going to be driving around. What do you talk about? Like you just said, maybe if they’re focused, you stay away, but do you talk about kids? Do you talk about the weather?

Cindy Miller: Everything. Anything that’s not business.

Fred Diamond: Can you talk about business or no?

Cindy Miller: No.

Fred Diamond: Why do you strongly recommend no business?

Cindy Miller: Because they’re going to know you’re trying to push them, and nobody likes a pushy salesperson. The more questions you ask them, you’re not being selfish. You’re showing you care. You’re showing you are interested in them. We’ve got a son who’s a financial advisor who has played with some real heavy hitters. He asks all the questions in the world, and our son is a really good player, so people want to play with him. He says, “It’s amazing how selfish those clients can be.” But once they understand that he cares about them, then they offer, “I’d like to meet. Hey, that was interesting. I can’t believe how many questions you asked me,” so that type of thing. You got to act like you care about them rather than hounding them for their business, because they will be turned away.

Fred Diamond: We like to say that on the average sales call, if the customer’s doing 95% of the talking, then it’s potentially a great sales call. Similar thing, what you’re saying is ask them questions. “How do you feel about how things are happening in the marketplace?” Those types of things. One of the greatest lessons that we ever had, it was a guy named Gary Milwit who was on the Sales Game Changers Podcast. His final bit of advice was make whoever you’re talking to feel important. Similar type of thing, what you’re saying, is just don’t go with the heavy sale. Number four, what’s the fourth most important thing you need to know?

Cindy Miller: Be aware of your surroundings. When someone’s hitting, you should be in front of them so you’re looking straight on with them. If they have a visor or a hat when they’re standing over a shot, they can’t see you. Don’t be behind them. Do not go in front of them. If you start walking up the fairway and you have no idea that Harry’s over in the woods getting ready to hit, you could get hit. Look around all the time. There’s so many things you need to be aware of when you play golf, and when you’re new to it, you don’t know. How would you know? Understand that you need to stop, be with the rest of your playing partners, and look around, “Where is everybody? Am I in anybody’s way? Am I walking in front of someone? Am I behind them?” Stand over to the side. Don’t clank your clubs, all that kind of stuff.

Fred Diamond: The other thing too is maybe one of the four people is really serious about it. You don’t know that. You’ll discover on the course. They’ve been waiting, they’re excited to see you. Especially in a lot of these business settings, you’re playing beautiful courses that you’d never played before. If somebody really is into golf and you’re inviting them to play at one of the great courses out there, it’s probably a once in a lifetime opportunity. I played at the most famous course in California, in Monterey and Carmel.

Cindy Miller: Pebble Beach.

Fred Diamond: Pebble Beach. I played there once and it was a dream come true. The person I played with, actually the four of us, one of them has played there all the time. It was when I lived in California and the whole time I was just thrilled. The 18th hole, you’re looking right out into the ocean. I remember the person I was with said to me afterwards, “I didn’t realize you were so excited to be playing here.” I was like, “This is Pebble Beach, man. This is a dream come true.” What is your favorite thing about golf?

Cindy Miller: That you can always get better. You never arrive. You have to stay teachable. Again, when I played on the tour, of the best in the world, I was the worst. 25 years after, I lost my card, I qualified to play on the Legends Tour and finished second on the money list. That’s pretty cool. You play until you croak, hopefully.

Fred Diamond: How do you feel when you’re walking down the fairway? Let’s say it’s the 18th hole and you’re on the Legends Tour, and you just said you’re the second lady money winner, so you obviously won tournaments. Talk about what that experience is like. As you’re walking down the 18th hole and you know you’re going to win, just give us some insights into what it’s like to be on the course.

Cindy Miller: I have never won on the Legends Tour. But again, my story’s cool because I’ve always been told, “You’re not good enough.” I think that’s why I love helping people, because like I said, I’m a high D, and I can be a little bit of a brat. When you tell me I can’t, I say, “Watch this.” I applied and competed on a reality show on the Golf Channel called The Big Break when I was 48 years old. The reason I did that was because I knew I needed to learn how not to choke and I wanted to win a Legends Tour event. I applied to be on the show. I was the token old lady of the show. I came in third on the show, and the next Legends Tour event, I didn’t need to qualify because I got a sponsor exemption because now everybody knew, “Oh, Mama Miller from The Big Break.”

I ended up birding the 17th hole, and I walked to the 18th tee tied for the lead, having to hit a shot over water with thousands of people watching me. I knocked that ball on the green, I two putted for par, and I thought I was going to be in a playoff. Then my buddy behind me ended up birding in 17 and she won by one. But the point was, what I needed to do was have the courage to look in the mirror and find out, “Why do you choke your guts out? Why are you trying too hard?” I did that and then it paid off. Basically I defeated my demons, which was the whole point of the situation. I proved to myself that the dream I had when I was 17 years old to play with the best in the world wasn’t going to be a nightmare that would haunt me the rest of my life.

I would challenge your listeners. I have this thing called The It box, there’s three things in the box. Let me get the little It box. First thing in the box is a nail. If you’re sitting on a nail and it’s poking you in the leg, and you’re whining and complaining, “Oh, this hurts, I hate this. I can’t stand this, I got to do something else,” get off the nail. I got off the nail. I was like, “Okay. I have to prove to myself that I can play.” How are you going to do that? Well, the way around that took a couple of years because I needed to learn how not to choke. I went and played on the minor league tour with all the little 20-year-olds, and I would walk up and they would say, “Is your daughter playing?” “No, it’s me.” “Why?” “Well, because I’m going to learn how not to choke.” Then I applied to be on a TV show.

The second thing in the box is a mirror. You have to have the courage to look in the mirror. Get off the nail, look in the mirror. “I try too hard, right? I want to win. I’m too competitive. I have to learn how to pace myself and pursue and not protect, and tell Cynthia to zip it.” Then the third thing in the box is a seed. Get off the nail. It’s time to learn how to play golf. Look in the mirror, what do I need to do? Then you have to plant a seed. Let’s go take some lessons, let’s get some decent clubs, let’s take a couple of courses, and let’s go play golf.

Fred Diamond: With sales, especially the type of people that listen to the Sales Game Changers Podcast, they’re typically in enterprise sales, business to business or business to government, there’s a whole bunch of things. There’s the whole prospecting, there’s the nurturing part of it. There’s the service side, there’s the presentation side. Not everyone’s good at everything. What is the one part of golf that you struggle with the most that you just wish you were better at? Conversely, what is the one part of golf that’s not a problem for you? In your sleep, you could do it.

Cindy Miller: My whole life I’ve tried to hit it farther. I don’t hit it far enough. I’ll straight you to death, but I don’t hit it far. What do you do if you don’t hit it far? You have to have a really good short game. Everybody gets to be good at something. Don’t sit there and brow beat yourself over what you’re not good at. Work at it a little bit, but, “Oh my gosh, I don’t hit it far enough.” Shut up. Just go work on what you’re really good at, and don’t worry about it.

Fred Diamond: Cindy, I could talk to you for another hour. First of all, congratulations on your success. It’s quite phenomenal that you said that you lost your card 25 some odd years prior. Then, for people who don’t know, the Legends, you have to be 50, I guess?

Cindy Miller: Yeah.

Fred Diamond: At the age of 50, or whenever, right about that, you then recommitted to the game and you’ve had success, which is remarkable on its own. The fact that, A, you stuck with it, and you kept getting better. That’s one of the things with sales too. I like the way you just said that with golf, you’re never done. You can keep getting better. We talk a lot, Cindy Miller, about continuous improvement, things you can work on. One thing that we talked a lot about in the beginning of the pandemic was if you’re a sales professional, what should professionals be doing? We used the golf analogy. We said, “If you’re a professional golfer, you’re out there five hours a day in the driving range, and you’re out there two hours a day on the putting green,” whatever it might be.

Same thing in sales is, what do you got to get better at if you’re a professional? If you’re a professional, be a professional. I want to applaud you for your success, and I want to applaud you for not just your success on the golf course, but for taking it into the corporate world as well, and for working with sales professionals, business leaders, entrepreneurs, to help them get more out of their career through the beauty and the love of golf. Give us a final action step, something specific. You’ve given us 15 great ideas. Give us something specific people should do right now to take their sales career to the next level.

Cindy Miller: Google something about how do I learn how to play golf? Have the courage to get off the nail and learn to play the game. Google something, golf etiquette. Go read that. If you don’t have time to take a lesson, go learn all about the etiquette. I dare you.

Fred Diamond: Now, that’s a great point. I love what we talked about here, is there’s so much you could learn about life and being a professional by spending time on the course. Cindy Miller, I appreciate you. Again, my name is Fred Diamond. This is the Sales Game Changers podcast.

Transcribed by Mariana Badillo

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