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[EDITOR’S NOTE: This is a replay of the Optimal Sales Mindset Webinar sponsored by the Institute for Excellence in Sales on June 17, 2021. It featured high-performance expert and host of the Success is a Choice Podcast Jamy Bechler.]
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JAMY’S TIP FOR EMERGING SALES LEADERS: “Sales professionals fail when they make it about themselves. The more that you can make it about what is best for the customer and how you can meet their needs, the better you’ll be. I see too many salespeople trying to make a sale by just giving the, “This is what you got to do because I want you to do it.” It’s all coming from my standpoint, my point of view, my perspective when the reality is people rarely are going to buy from me just because it’s going to help me out. It doesn’t matter if you’re selling computer parts, airplane parts or you’re selling an 18-year-old on why they need to come to your college. If you just give your sales pitch, no matter how great it is, that person must leave the interaction feeling better about themselves.”
THE PODCAST STARTS HERE
Fred Diamond: We’re talking today to Jamy Bechler. For people who watch and listen to our Thursday show, the Sales Game Changers Optimal Sales Mindset show, Jamy, they know that I geek out whenever I have somebody who comes from the sports world.
You’re a leadership coach for sports teams, basketball is your big sport, college, high school sports as well. You work with the leaders, you’re also the host, of course, of the Success is a Choice podcast. You’re also good friends with one of our good friends, the great Alan Stein Jr. who has graced our stage in person and also has been on our podcast as well.
It’s great to see you, we’re wearing similar colors today. For people who are listening to the podcast, we’re both wearing a beige-ish type of sports coat, I’m actually wearing a tie as I usually do now. I just decided, Jamy, to put on a tie about a month ago, it’s changed my professionalism.
Let’s talk about professionalism, let’s talk about you. Give us a little bit of an overview and then I got a whole laundry list of questions. Jamie, it’s great to see you. You’re in Akron, I’m actually based in Northern Virginia. For people who frequently see my background, I’m actually broadcasting today’s show not too far from Atlantic City down here to see some family.
Tell us a little bit about you, give us a little bit of a context and then I’ll start going into the questions.
Jamy Bechler: I appreciate you having me on, Fred. I was a college basketball coach for about 20 years. I was also a high school athletic director for a couple of years with a large athletic program in Indiana, fifth largest gymnasium in the world, seated over 7,000 people and people know about Indiana basketball, high school basketball. Who’s your state?
The high school I was an athletic director at, nobody has won more boys’ basketball state titles than that school had. It was a great tradition, it was a great opportunity for me to be a leader there. About five years ago, I left organize athletics, started my own business in leadership coaching, leadership consulting. I got certified as a John Maxwell Leadership Coach and that has helped me also to be an entrepreneur.
The last five years, I’ve been mainly working with sports teams from the professional, college, high school levels, it doesn’t matter. I do work with businesses, but my main lane is sports teams and helping them to develop better teammates, more positive leaders and ultimately, stronger cultures. That’s what we all want, even in the business world.
When I talk to a bank or when I talk to a business that does airplane parts, makes airplanes, they still want great teammates, more positive leaders and a stronger culture so that their results can be better. It doesn’t matter what the industry is, that’s what we essentially do.
Fred Diamond: Let’s talk specifically about leadership. How does it look different from sports to business? A couple interesting things. If you’re listening sometime in the future to the Sales Game Changers podcast, we’re actually broadcasting today’s show in the middle of June, 2021. Jamy, we’ve been doing daily webinars since the pandemic kicked in, in March of 2020. I can’t believe it’s been almost 16 months now.
We’ve seen an evolution and we’re really at an interesting time right now. We interviewed the senior VP of public sector for a company called Dun & Bradstreet, a lot of people are familiar with D&B. His name is Tim Solms, I said, “Tim, what is your main priority right now?” He said it’s basically observing the fatigue level of the people on his teams and I was just blown away.
We talked about that, we actually did a second LinkedIn poll about that. Fatigue’s a huge problem right now, people are confused about the future, they’re confused with where they want to go. Talk about leadership and how does it look differently in the sports world versus the business world?
Jamy Bechler: Great question. I want to piggy-back on what you said about that guest and his answer about observing his team members or people’s fatigue. I get asked the question a lot in the sports realm of how is sports different or how is leadership different now as opposed to what it was 16 months ago or before the pandemic? I’m painting with a broad brush, but my answer is it’s almost the same from a 30,000-foot view.
What I mean by that is even what you just said, observing our people’s fatigue, that comes down to observing your people. Whether it’s their fatigue or whatever it is, that X factor, you fill in the blank, leadership is about knowing your people. It’s about knowing how to inspire your people, it’s about taking someone from where they’re at to where they need to be and being a person of influence.
That doesn’t change whether we’re in a pandemic, before a pandemic, whether things are going great or things are going poorly. We still need to have a sustainable idea of how to take people from where they are to where they need to be. Fatigue or some of these different dynamics from the pandemic are just details.
Certainly, details are important. But even before the pandemic, every CEO, manager, supervisor, coach, director should be very self-aware of themselves but also self-aware of their people. How can I best help my people and am I observing them and knowing what makes them tick so I can get the most out of them?
When you ask what’s the difference between maybe sports leadership and business leadership, there are some details, there are some X’s and O’s to a degree. But for the most part, there’s not a whole lot of difference when I work with a bank or if I’m working with an NBA team or I’m working with a high school team. It’s about how can I get the most out of everybody, make everybody better so that our whole organization or our whole team can move forward to achieve some common goals?
Fred Diamond: Let’s talk about choice. Again, your podcast is called Success is a Choice. Our audience is primarily sales professionals, sales leaders. I didn’t mention all the Platinum Sponsors of the Institute for Excellence in Sales, but we have companies like Amazon, SAP NS2, Red Hat, Cvent, Asher Strategies, big companies. We talk every day about things that they can do to hopefully get better at the very challenging profession of professional sales.
Being successful in sales is very, very difficult. A lot of people mistakenly think that if you have some charisma and some energy… It is hard, man. There are so man things you’ve got to do. I’m not even talking about pandemic, but just to have the courage to be successful.
You talk about the choice, you could choose to be successful. You also talk about failure being a choice. Talk first about some of the choices that people need to make to be successful, and then I’m also interested in the corollary. Why would someone choose to fail?
Jamy Bechler: When I think of choices, we’re going to make hundreds, if not thousands of choices during the day and most of those are little and inconsequential to a degree, they’re micro choices. We tend to think of the big huge choices that we have to make, the two or three big, major choices I made today or I made this week.
But all those little micro choices go into our habits, and developing those habits of how we make choices, what the process is for making choices, how we’re going to approach a decision when we have that fork in the road. Some of us, it becomes almost automatic because we’ve been for the last year, two years, three years, for the last 50 years of our lives, we’ve made all these micro choices that has made it so much easier for us to make this major choice in our life.
Most of the time, and I’ve said this too, I said it more when I was younger than I do now but I still say it. “Man, I just don’t know what to do.” Most of the time, we know what to do, we just don’t want to do it. I want to drink a Dr. Pepper, I want to eat a slice of pizza. “Oh, man, I just don’t know how to lose weight, I don’t know how to get in shape, I just don’t know what to do.” No, I do know. Put the Dr. Pepper down, put the pizza down, pick up an apple, pick up a bottle of water.
That’s simple, but it could be for almost anything. Most of the time, our choices are easy. We just have to make the decision of, is it more important that we get what we want right now or get what we want most? A lot of times, we say, all right. This is what I want five years from now, this is the most important thing in my life, but then my actions today aren’t on par with what I want tomorrow.
I’m making decisions today that are betraying my goals of being successful down the road. I say that this is what I want most but really, what I just showed everybody was what I wanted right now was what I wanted most. I actually just saw a tweet today I believe from Dave Ramsey, the financial guru guy. It was something to the effect of, we’ll know your priorities based on what you spend your money on and what you spend your time on.
We can talk all day long about, “I want to be successful in this area” or, “This is my goal” but if our actions today don’t match up with those goals, then we really know what’s most important. It’s what I want to do right now. That’s where I think our success is a series of choices that we make.
With that being said, success looks different for everybody. How I view success might be different than somebody else, but I think overall, we all should be viewing success as something that is most important to us that we can achieve at some point down the road. Down the road might be a year from now, five years from now, 10 years from now, it might be tomorrow. When I talk to teams all the time, my personal definition of success is doing the best that I am capable of doing.
Fred Diamond: It’s interesting, I have a son who was a college hockey player and we had invested in a coach for him to get into college, basically, with hockey. I remember when we met the coach, he basically said there’s a lot of guys who want to play college hockey that are just as talented as you are. I remember the coach said, “When you’re watching TV, are you doing push-ups while you’re watching TV or are you sitting on the couch watching TV?” Nothing wrong with watching TV, but there’s 20 other guys who are competing for that spot.
We actually have a question here that comes in from Alan. The question is, “Being congruent in what we say we want really is the challenge. From a leadership perspective, how can leaders be conscious of what their people want?” Talk a little bit about the leader/team member relationship. What can you be doing as a leader to understand what your people really want?
Jamy Bechler: First of all, I think one of the issues that we have as a leader or just in general, just looking at whether you think you’re a leader or not, we have a selfishness issue. We have an issue of we just want what we want, and we’re not very self-aware, we’re not very observant, we’re not very conscious or even care about other people or other things. We just want what we want.
What happens sometimes is we don’t evaluate what we’re doing, we don’t look at the whole forest, we just look at our one tree. We’re only looking at a tree instead of the whole forest and what happens is it doesn’t help anybody around us. When we just look at ourself and what we want, it doesn’t help the people around us.
Secondly, it doesn’t help us get better because even if we’re achieving some of these short-term successes or goals that we have, we’re not actually evaluating and being self-aware of, are we growing? Are we improving? Are we becoming a better salesperson? Are we becoming a better person? Are we becoming a better whatever, fill in the blank?
There is that congruence of we have to be very self-aware and we have to take a step back sometimes and evaluate what I’m saying, what I’m doing. Is it on par? Is it congruent with what my goal is? Or in a company, how many times do we see companies with great websites or great literature or marketing materials or social media presence but it’s a terrible place to work because they don’t live up to what their image is?
This is what they want people to think of them, but that’s not really what they are, they’re not congruent there. They don’t take a step. They either, one, aren’t taking time to take a step back and evaluate or two, they just don’t care. It goes back to that self-awareness.
Fred Diamond: Jamy, I want to ask you a question about that. You talked about understanding what you want. Talk about goals for a little bit. Again, you work with a lot of professional teams and leaders of those organizations and college teams. It’s not really safe to say that every team wants to win the NBA Championship or win the NCAA finals because not every team is there.
Maybe at the start of the season when every record is zero and zero, there’s a dream but only one team is going to win the Championship in the MBA, one team’s going to win the World Series, one team is going to win the Michigan State Basketball 4A Championship level.
Talk a little bit about goals, how do you advise them to use goals? Because if you think about creating the goals, you then can also figure about what are the action steps that you need to be taking to reach these goals.
I remember talking in sports analogies and things and I remember we used to talk about how Larry Bird was the MBA leading scorer and he wanted to go from 32 to 33 points a game. The top MBA scoring champion wanted to get one more point per game on average. What do you have to do to get that one additional thing?
Give me your insights. We have a lot of questions coming in so maybe keep the answers a little bit shorter, but talk about goal setting from the sports world and how it could apply to the sales profession world as well.
Jamy Bechler: First of all, like Simon Sinek says, you’ve got to know your why. Why are you even doing this, what’s your purpose? It’s probably to make money, or it’s probably to win games. That’s fine, I’m not here to preach to you or tell you that that’s wrong to have a narrow-focused goal. But whatever your why is, whatever your purpose is, then you work backwards. You reverse-engineer that why, that purpose, and that’s how you get your goals.
We highly recommend goals, writing them down. This is not something that’s unique to me, this is not some rocket science here. Know your goals, write down your goals, make sure they’re measurable, make sure they’re realistic, but then have smaller goals. Just like we talk about the macro choices or the micro choices you make, have a longer-term goal, that macro goal but then all those mini goals of how you go about it each day.
We would talk about in sports, you don’t win in January just because you show up in January. You win in January because you showed up in November and you showed up in October and you did things in August. There’s going to come a time in the winter where winter asks what you did in the summer, if you’re a basketball player.
The same way sales or business, whatever you’re in, if I want to make $100,000 in sales in a year or $100,000 a month, whatever it is, now work backwards. What is that going to look like and what am I going to need to do to achieve those things? You always are working backwards. What do I want it to look like? Then how do I get to that place?
Fred Diamond: We have a question here that comes in from Martin. Martin wants to know, what are some of the mistakes that you see sales professionals do time and time again when they’re in the art and science of selling?
Jamy Bechler: In general, the very first thing that comes to my mind is they make it about themselves. I know you’ve got to put food on the table, I know that’s your job, but the more that you can make it about, what is best for the customer? Or, how can I meet your needs?
Too many times salespeople – and I see this whether it’s a college coach recruiting, that’s a sales job, whether it’s me trying to sell my 11-year-old on something. I see people trying to make a sale by just giving the, “This is what you got to do because I want you to do it.” It’s all coming from my standpoint, my point of view, my perspective when the reality is people rarely are going to buy from me just because it’s going to help me out.
How can it help them out? What can I do to help take Fred and make Fred’s life better? To take Fred from where he is to where he wants to go? You have to ask better questions or even start asking questions. Some of us as salespeople don’t even ask questions.
It doesn’t matter if you’re selling computer parts, airplane parts or you’re selling an 18-year-old on why they need to come to your college. If you just give your sales pitch, no matter how great it is, that person leaves that interaction not feeling better about themselves necessarily.
Fred Diamond: That’s a great point. We’ve been doing these daily webcasts every day since the pandemic kicked in and we’ve been doing live events for 7, 8 years. We’re up to 400 podcast episodes, over a million listeners. There are so many things that became crystal clear. By the way, Nicholas says, “Great answer.”
One of the key themes that we’ve learned is the fact that sales success is really about service. Some people say, “Why don’t you call yourself the Institute for Excellence in Service?” Well, we are about sales but sales is really about service, especially over the last 15 months, Jamy. If it’s about you, you’re not even going to fail miserably, you’re not even going to get into the game to fail.
Everything has really been about the customer, and the customer’s customer because everybody has been hit by the pandemic at some level. I did a post last week where I said, “As we come out of the pandemic in the United States…” somebody commented on my post, he said, “If you think we’re coming out of the pandemic, you’re in a fantasy world because the rest of the world is still suffering from the pandemic.”
If you’re selling or using support from India or Singapore, even, a first world country has just gotten crushed recently. Canada is still on lockdown, I talked to a VP of sales in Winnipeg the other day. It’s really critical.
I want to touch on this a little bit as it relates to team. For the last 15 somewhat months, most sales teams have been at home, they’ve been in the virtual world and it’s been a struggle. People have done the best they could, hopefully, we’ll never see virtual happy hours anymore because that couldn’t have done a good thing [laughs]. Maybe in March of last year was okay but by the way, people, if you’re still doing virtual happy hours, stop. Stop doing virtual happy hours, you people don’t need to be drinking together.
No, but seriously. What are some of your suggestions for the sales leaders out there to build their teams as we shift into out of the pandemic, back to the office or some degree of hybrid? Give us some of your thoughts on that.
Jamy Bechler: The very first thing is get over yourself, quit looking at yourself as you have all the answers and I’m going to tell you this is the way we’re going to do it. Start asking questions of your team members, start seeing the whole forest and not just your tree. Start asking questions and understand your individual team members and what makes them tick, what motivates them, what inspires them, because you’re going to have to bring all these people together now that the pandemic is done.
I would have answered this question almost the same way before a pandemic. You still have to find out what makes each of your team members tick. I think the traditional way of doing business a lot of times, whether it’s a sports team or in the business world is faulty because it’s 9 to 5 or it’s do this, do that. This is cliché, but having Friday Jeans, that can go a long way for two of your people in your company or allowing them to work remotely, or allowing this to happen or that to happen.
Finding out what motivates Fred might not be the same thing that motivates Jamy. I was working with this $100 million company out west and the CEO was telling me, “We pay these people a lot of money, we pay them tons of money. I don’t understand why they’re not motivated. They need to come to work motivated.”
There might be some people in his company that are motivated by their paycheck, but there’s going to be other people that would take a little bit less money so that they could maybe go home at lunch or they could take one hour off extra a day, or maybe they can work remotely. Maybe they just want an office with a view, maybe they want no office, maybe the want a standing desk. It doesn’t matter, there’s tons of ways that you can help your team members and it’s going to be different for each one.
But what we do, we get in a rut and we paint by numbers. We paint with a broad brush sometimes and we just try to fit all these 15 people or these 20 team members or whatever it is in one box, put them in a corner. “This is how you should be on this team because this is what it was in 1980 or 1975 when we had our best year of revenue or whatever.
Fred Diamond: Thinking about basketball, I lived in Detroit in the late 90s and I attended a lunch presentation by Bill Laimbeer, one of the Piston Bad Boys. He won a couple rings and I don’t know if he’s in the Hall of Fame, but obviously he’s a highest level of player. Then he went into business and he’s talking about how much of a struggle it was for him because not everybody was motivated to be the best company.
When you played for the Pistons with Vinnie Johnson and Isaiah Thomas and Dumars and all those guys, Rodman, they were all committed to winning the NBA Championship to the last guy. Then he goes to an office where not everybody was committed to it, he said that was one of his biggest challenges.
I got a follow-up question here. You talked about teams and we have one or two more questions here. How can you be a better teammate? Not just how can you lead your people to be a better teammate, but for the people being here. It’s an interesting question, I remember I asked this question a couple of times in past Sales Game Changers podcasts that we did. I remember one of our guests, a guy named Vince Burruano, he’s with a company called JK Moving.
He said one of the best things that came out of the pandemic was that people stood up, people rose to the occasion. People who weren’t necessarily leaders chose to mentor younger people and younger people chose to mentor or give some guidance to older people. He said that was probably one of the best results of this was people stepping up. Give us some of your insights for the listeners on how they could be a better teammate moving forward.
Jamy Bechler: About three things come to mind right away. Number one is life’s not always going to be perfect. Your job’s not going to be perfect, your team’s not going to be perfect, get over it. You can still do what you can do, you can still choose your attitude, you can still choose your effort at work.
I don’t care if your boss is an idiot, I don’t care if the customers are dumb, I don’t care if your fellow workers are rude. It doesn’t matter, you can still do what you can do. That’s the first thing that comes out, quick looking to the left or the right at these excuses. There’s no excuse for you being rude, there’s no excuse for you being a jerk, there’s no excuse for you being lazy. Those are your choices.
The second thing is realize that it doesn’t matter what your title is, it doesn’t matter if you’re just “a teammate”. You’re a leader to somebody, you’re a leader because you can influence, you’re a person of influence. We actually just dropped a quick little podcast, a two-minute blurb yesterday about Harriet Tubman.
Way back in the civil war era, Harriet Tubman led hundreds of slaves out of the south to freedom. She was a short black uneducated woman in the 1850s and 60s, it doesn’t get any lower on an organizational depth chart or a flow chart than that. She had no position of leadership, and yet she’s one of the greatest leaders of all time because she was able to take people and help their situation and make things better to influence people.
She literally took people from where they were to where they could be. Now, if you’re listening to this and you’re just a sales person or you’re just an employee, you’re going to talk to another “just a teammate”, “just an employee”, “just a salesperson” at the water cooler. You’re going to exchange emails with them, you’re going to talk to them in the break room at lunch.
You can choose to be positive or negative, you can choose to inspire them or just to encourage them if inspiration if a threatening word. “Fred, I loved the way you answered the phone the other day.” “Hey, Fred, I loved what you said in that meeting.” “Fred, I loved what you did with this, what I saw with that customer even though you didn’t get the sale. I think that’s going to pay off down the road because you didn’t ruin the relationship just because you lost the sale.” You can influence people.
Fred Diamond: Jamy, I have one last question. We’re going to be asking you for your final action step here in a second as we do, we end every Sales Game Changers podcast with a specific action step. You’ve given us a lot of ideas. I want to talk about habits for a second before you give us your final action step. We have a little bit a time, give us a couple habits, and we talk about habits a lot, things you should be doing to prepare.
We talk a lot about morning process, we’ve talked about The Morning Miracle, I’m a big fan of Hal Elrod and we talk about things you do. We talk about little things you do differently. I remember I attended a session on basketball, and you know this more than I do, they talked about just moving your hands just half an inch and how that would make a huge difference. Those little things.
Talk about two habits that you think the sales professionals watching or listening today should start thinking about employing to take their sales career to the next level.
Jamy Bechler: I’m going to give you a 30-foot one first and that’s a cliché, but make your bed. I know some people have said that a lot, make your bed or whatever it means for you. It could be something else.
To me, I’m like almost everybody else, I don’t want to make my bed, there’s no reason to make my bed, no one will ever be in my bedroom except me. But I make my bed so that I can tell this day today, this is Thursday, “Thursday, I owned you to start with. I started out this day 1-0 against you, I just scored a bucket against you because I don’t want to do this, but I did it.” I’m starting out the day up two-nothing in basketball phrase, or a touchdown in football phrase. I’m up a touchdown against you today.
The next thing, I’m keeping score, Thursday. I’m keeping score and I’m going to own you and I’m going to win this day. That’s a cliché type thing, but just the mentality of, I’m going to do these little things that I don’t want to do. If I like to drink coffee, I’m not winning the day by going and getting a cup of coffee. That’s something I want to do. I’m going to keep track of all of these things I don’t want to do, that’s the first thing.
The second thing is, and actually, this is an action step that I know that you always ask your guests about. Actually write out your goal, the most important thing, write it out. Put it in front of you so you can see it. That would be a habit of a sticky note. You might have 37 sticky notes, that’s probably not a good idea. But whatever that most important thing is that day, I want to put that on my computer, put it on my mirror, whatever it is, until it starts to become a habit.
Maybe I’m gaining weight because I’m eating too much food at my refrigerator. I might put a sticky note on my refrigerator that just says, “Is opening this refrigerator worth it?” Just something like that. Eventually, I’ll see that enough where it’ll become a habit. Whatever it is for that salesperson or that businessperson to do that, that would be a habit.
Fred Diamond: That is a great point. As a matter of fact, I actually make the bed every morning and I think it was some general did his TED Talk about that’s the #1 thing to do, and I make it a point to make the bed every morning when I get up. My spouse, she likes to clean the kitchen so every morning, she cleans the kitchen, it’s spotless. She says that is her equivalent of making the bed.
Jamy, I want to let you know before I ask you for your final action step, you gave one but I’ll ask you to give one specific one at the end. You’ve touched a lot of people with the work that you’ve done over the last 20 somewhat years, you’ve helped so many people understand that success really is a choice.
I like what you said before, do I want to eat the pizza or do I want to have an apple? Those little things, I’ll be honest with you, I drive past Dunkin’ Donuts all the time and I say to myself, “I can just get a little cruller, it’s only 300 calories, I’ll wash it down.” But if you stop there, that’s 300 calories. Also, it destroys who you are, it goes against the integrity of who you are.
By the way, also a little bit of a twist, ironically, this morning I watched Simon Sinek’s TED talk on Why. I literally watched the 19-minute TED talk. We’re doing a show in a couple of weeks about your mission and your why and I was just compelled to watch it.
Jamy Bechler, I want to thank you so much. Give us one final action step, something specific our listeners can do to take their sales career to the next level.
Jamy Bechler: Some of your listeners may be doing this, but I think less and less are doing it in the age of technology is the handwritten note. Handwritten note for everything, it doesn’t have to be, I’m sending Fred a note every day.
It could be, first of all, I’m going to have a systematic approach to my customers or my potential customers. However you do it with your business or your organization, but I’m going to have a systematic approach that I know Fred is going to get so many handwritten notes from me.
It could be on different topics, but I’m going to send Fred handwritten notes because it’s so easy to delete an email, it’s so easy to just look at that and be, all right, cool, Jamy sent me something. Everybody does that. People are not sending handwritten notes.
It could be your daughter’s birthday or a graduation or you can Google almost every one of your customers, you can do Google Alerts, you can find out cool things that happen to them. It could be thank-you’s, it could be congratulations, but it’s not “sales things”. It’s non-threatening hand notes. Not like, “I’m going to beat you up” but it’s, “I’m not asking for a sale with this.” I’m congratulating you, thanking you, wishing you happy birthday, whatever.
Fred Diamond: One thing I recommend people do too is I have 20,000 LinkedIn followers. Every day it shows me who’s birthday it is. If I know them, I pick up the phone and I call them and I say, “Just want to wish you a happy birthday.” My good friend Jeremy Epstein is the first person I know who did this. People are like, “Thanks” and it’s just to touch base and it may last for a while.
Jamy Bechler, thank you so much for the great content today. Everybody who gave us 45 minutes of your time, thank you so much. We’ll see you tomorrow on the Creativity in Sales webinar. Thank you all so much.
Transcribed by Mariana Badillo