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[EDITOR’S NOTE: This is a replay of the Sales Game Changers LIVE Webinar sponsored by the Institute for Excellence in Sales on May 4, 2021. It featured sales leader at PatientPop Kevin Dorsey.]
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KD’S TIP FOR EMERGING SALES LEADERS: “This might be too blunt, but truthfully, I feel most reps don’t actually take their careers as serious as they could and should. Most salespeople – and this applies to vets and new reps, put more time and dedication to their high school sport, band or hobby than they have their sales career, period. Point blank, I’m going to call it out. Whatever it is that they’re selling, they’re selling to HR, they’re selling to finance, they don’t immerse themselves into where their prospects live. What are the forums the prospects are in? What are the magazines the prospect subscribes to? What are the Google Alerts that would make the prospect’s world better? Who are the thought leaders of the prospects? They don’t take it seriously. That is where I think most sales reps go wrong. They don’t treat it like the career and the gift that it is. Sales is such a gift, I truly believe it’s one of the best careers you can have. What other career out there could someone like myself have and to make the money that I make and have the impact that I have other than sales?”
THE INTERVIEW STARTS HERE
Fred Diamond: We’re talking about building sales teams today and what you could be doing to take your sales career to the next level. How are things going for you? You’re down in Austin, we talked a little bit about what it’s like down there before. How are things going for your business and how has the pandemic affected things?
Kevin Dorsey: I’ll work backwards there. The pandemic really hit our team hard. We sell to private practice doctors and we sell marketing and presence and patience, at the end of the day, to private practices. The majority of whom were deemed nonessential through a lot of the pandemic here. A lot of the elected services they couldn’t even do, so we got hit really hard last year.
It was something that I’ll look back on in my career as probably one of the most challenging stretches of my career. Not just because of a results standpoint, but also from a people standpoint. It’s one of those things I don’t think is talked about enough right now, everyone likes to talk about remote working, remote selling. This hasn’t just been remote work, this has been lockdown work, this has been not-seeing-friends-and-family work. This is not-being-able-to-go-out-with-your-friends-after-work work.
It was a hard stretch, really worked hard to try to keep the team together thinking positively moving forward. I think now as we move into 2021, we’re starting to see some of those things of normalcy come back again. We’re starting to see some of that momentum come back, that energy come back. With that, the results as well. It’s been a hell of a journey, but I’m definitely happier where things are now than they were six months ago, a year ago. We’re really going to continue to build on it.
Fred Diamond: You’re with PatientPop. It’s interesting, we’re doing today’s interview in May of 2021. We were doing some shows back in January, in February when it would get dark at 4:00 o’clock. A lot of the sales professionals that we work with are i the early stages of their career and I could see some young professionals really struggling. A couple companies were saying, hey, you’re in your apartment, you can’t go to bars, you can’t go see your friends. We gave you a computer, you might as well make some phone calls or respond to leads that are coming in the middle of the night.
Mental health was a challenge that has come up not infrequently back then. Is it still a big challenge that you think people are facing. Or has the spring and the fact that things are becoming a little more quasi like they were before eased it? Is that still a big challenge leaders need to be concerned with?
Kevin Dorsey: It’s definitely still a big challenge. Mental health and sales was a big challenge long before the pandemic, long before all this went down. I think some silver linings, it’s helped bring it to the forefront a little bit more. It’s allowed it to be discussed more and there’s more conversations happening around it, but it’s definitely still a challenge because we’re not out of it yet.
But what we tend to forget about mental health is mental health doesn’t deteriorate overnight and it also doesn’t get fixed overnight. We are all carrying a lot of baggage from this past year mentally. Just because it starts to get a little bit warmer and things start to sign up a little bit doesn’t mean we’ve actually dealt with a lot of that.
We do a lot of work with our teams. We do gratitude work, we do journaling work, we do goal setting work, meditation work, visualization. There’s a few books that are an open invitation to expense for the team. If they want to go buy Happiness Advantage, they can buy it and expense it no questions asked. If they want to go buy The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck, they can go buy it and expense it.
It’s something where what I’m hoping to start to see is at least people are talking about it now. But you’ve got to start doing something with it too, you can’t just talk. You have to really empower and build it into your teams and cultures and hopefully that trend starts to continue and build.
Fred Diamond: When the pandemic kicked in, one of my goals was to read a book a day. The Subtle Art is one of the books that I read, it’s been almost a year right now. We’re talking to Kevin “KD” Dorsey with PatientPop. What are your priorities right now? What are the main things? I loved your answer, by the way, on the mental health because you’re right.
Sales is an up and down career, there’s good days, you’ve got to stay positive, you’ve got to stay focused. If you have a bad day where nobody took your call, you’ve got to move on to the next day. That’s why we do a mindset show every Thursday, 2:00 o’clock Eastern time. We bring on mindset experts, athletes and entertainers to talk about keeping that focus. How about you? Tell us what your priorities are right now and then what are some of the things you’re focusing on?
Kevin Dorsey: It’s people, it’s process and it’s execution. We were riffing a little bit before we went live here. My first focus is people and it’s twofold. It’s hiring, bringing new people in, we’re in growth mode again which is fun, it’s exciting, it’s what I enjoy the most. But then people development, skill development. Really in empowering, coaching, training and making people good at what they do.
I think that’s my first focus, do I have the right people? Are they getting the training, the support, the coaching that they need to succeed in sales? Sales is this industry, we’re a ragtag bunch of misfits. A lot of us fell into it, there’s not a lot of training for a lot of salespeople so a lot of people are out there just winging it, so really a lot of coaching and development. People is #1.
The second is processes, I’m a very system-based leader. I want to make things repeatable, I want to make sure that they’re measurable, I want to make sure that it’s not a fluke. That it’s not just a couple superstars carrying the bag, really making sure that we know what’s working, what’s not and then making those tweaks. Very process-oriented as we go to market. What’s changing in the market? What’s changing with our prospects? How can we change our approach to stand out, be memorable and deliver a really good sales process to the prospects?
Last is execution. If you have the right people, great. If you a have a good process, great. But if it’s not executed upon, none of it matters. Again, in a remote environment that’s been different around execution. When you’re in the office and the person to your left is executing and the person to your right is executing, it’s easier for you to execute. When you’re sitting in your room and there’s no one around and you’ve been there for a long time now, executions can sometimes waver.
Those are my main priorities as we scale, as we grow. People, people development, processes and then execution of those processes.
Fred Diamond: I want to follow up on something you mentioned before. You talked about certain books you allow your people to get. If people go to Kevin’s LinkedIn page – also go to mine if you haven’t LinkedIn to me yet – you talk about the continuous need for education and motivation and for learning. One of our favorite hashtags that we use at the Institute for Excellence in Sales is #continuouslearning. Talk a little bit about mindfulness.
Every once in a while the word meditate comes up. I just bought this stand-up desk so I have access to different things. My wife bought me this, mindfulness cards. It’s huge, and it really is. Again, that’s why we’re doing a show on Thursday just on mindset. Give us your perspective on that. You started to talk about it but why did you bring it up? Why is it such a big thing with you?
You’ve managed hundreds of salespeople, maybe thousands. You’ve seen it all, you’ve been around the country managing sales teams. High growth, where it’s even more of a challenge because people don’t know your name, it’s not like Salesforce calling on the door and they’re going to take your call. Talk a little bit about why that’s so important to you.
Kevin Dorsey: It’s important for two really big reasons. The first is it’s good for people in general. Career aside, industry aside, when you look at what improves creativity, what improves fulfillment, what reduces stress, what improves sleep, what improves happiness. All the things that we’re really searching for in life across the board, mindfulness is at the heart of all of them.
Regardless of the career you chose, regardless of the industry if you’re in, if you get better sleep, you’ll have a better life. If you can reduce your stress levels, you’ll have a better life. If you can improve your gratitude and wire your brain to look for the good in the world, you’ll have a better life. That’s the first part of it.
I wish more people got involved in mindfulness and it doesn’t always have to be meditation. There are so many different ways to be mindful, to be present, to be taking care of – we talk about this a lot – the person in salesperson. The things that I encourage anybody to start in terms of mindfulness is a meditation practice.
Some people hear meditation, they think this is like sitting in a dark room for an hour with a sound bath on and chanting like a monk. No, that’s not what it needs to be. 10 to 15 minutes of meditation a day, 5 minutes of gratitude. Three things that you’re grateful in the morning, three things that you’re grateful for at night and with intention. Not just like, “I’m so grateful for my family, friends and health.” With intention, what are you really grateful for?
Journaling is a great habit to get into as well. Getting your thoughts out on paper, because we’re in such a nonstop world right now that our brains are always spinning trying to capture all the information we’re doing. I think that’s why it’s important on the first level.
Second level, tell me someone if who doesn’t have lower stress, has higher EQ, is a better creative problem solver and is more optimistic wouldn’t also be a better salesperson. At one point I went to my HR team, this was two years ago, and I was like, “Can I make meditation mandatory?” They’re like, “No, you can’t make it mandatory.” Why not? I can make cold calling mandatory, a soul-sucking, soul-destroying activity but I can’t make meditation mandatory for my teams?
When you look at the science behind meditation, what it does to our brains and our lives and our productivity is proven. Why not integrate that into your teams? If I could, I would make meditation mandatory and we do. We have meditation sessions every single week, but of course, they’re not mandatory because I can’t do that. But if I could, I would.
Fred Diamond: That’s a great idea. I’m reminded of IBM back in the day. All over their offices they used to have a sign and the sign just said, “Think.” It’s very difficult to think when you’re running around, when you’re moving, when your mind’s a buzz. But it’s very easy when you can sit down, think, take a notepad.
We had a guest on a couple of weeks ago, his name is Gay Hendricks and he wrote my favorite book of all time, which is called The Big Leap. At the end of the show, I asked him for an action step that he recommends, which I’m going to be asking you for in a little bit here. We end all of our webinars and our podcasts with it.
He gave a creative answer, he said, go sit down by yourself very quietly and think about all the things that you’re great at, all the things that make you great. All those things really do come into play. KD, I want to ask you right now. We’ve seen a challenge over the last year where it’s been very difficult to really be an elite sales professional.
It’s not just that you’re remote, your customers have been remote and every challenge that you’ve gone through as a sales professional as it relates to COVID and the financial implications – we could talk for hours about what’s happened to the world – your customers have been going through as well. What do you think it takes to be an elite sales professional right now?
We’re talking in the middle of May in 2021, most people are still remote, companies are still trying to figure out in a lot of ways the process moving forward, not just for sales. Bringing people back, interfacing with customers, compliance, all those kinds of things. What is an elite sales leader and what is an elite sales professional doing right now?
Kevin Dorsey: I’ll combine them, back to my first priority is the elite leaders and the elite salespeople have an elite understanding of people. That’s where a lot of sellers and leaders miss. If you have a better understanding of people, what drives us to make decisions, what drives our emotions, what are the fears of most people, what are the desires of most people? How do people like to be communicated with?
If you focus on people, that’s how you go to another level in terms of a leader and as a seller. For example, elite sellers – and I worked on this even with my own team – understand that people buy because of emotion and justify with logic. The more emotional their state, the less likely logic will work. Have we been in a high emotion state for a long time now? Yes, we have. The emotions of our buyers are much higher now because of everything that’s been going on.
If you lean too heavy into logic during an emotional state, it doesn’t connect. This is why you see more and more pushback now of, “Three times this, 5X that, decrease that.” People are like, “Ugh, tired of it.” Whereas an elite salesperson understands the emotion that their buyers are going through, they’re understanding their emotions that their products would cost. There’s going to be emotions that they have now and in the future.
Then same as a leader, understand the emotions of your people. But then also empowering them to sell the right way. I think that’s the difference, understanding people. If you understand people, the next thing that’s the difference between elites and greats, be memorable. The elites are memorable. You may have interacted with a lot of good salespeople in your career, even fewer greats, even fewer elites. You’ve remembered the elites. You remember them, they’re memorable. If more sales reps and leaders spent time being memorable, that also is a big difference maker right now in a hyper contentious sales environment. Be memorable.
Fred Diamond: That is a great answer. I’ve done a lot of coaching with sales professionals and I love that answer. They would say to me, how do I set myself apart? I would say, you want to be known as “the guy” for your industry in your market or your geography. If you’re selling commercial real estate in New York City, it’s a big city, but let’s say you want to be known as one of the guys. If you’re a corporate insurance salesperson in Tucson, Arizona, you want to be known as the corporate insurance guy and you just happen to be working for Company X right now.
We’re getting some questions from the audience here. We have a question here from Curtis and I think you might know Curtis. Curtis says, “Ask KD about 8-miling.” I lived in Detroit for a number of years, I wonder if there’s a reference there, something to do with the great 8-Mile Road or maybe it’s the Eminem movie. I’m not sure, but tell us about 8-miling.
Kevin Dorsey: Shout out to Curtis, he’s one of my former reps, had a really good run with him at Human in SnackNation. 8-miling is an objection handling technique that I teach to my teams. For anybody that hasn’t seen it, there’s a movie called 8 Mile that has Eminem in it, he’s a white battle rapper and battle rapping is not predominantly a white person type thing, especially in certain parts of Detroit.
The last battle of the movie, he goes up on stage and basically says all the bad things about himself first. All the things that the other rapper would have said about him. Then he turns it around, turns it onto him, wins the battle, goes off in history. The point of this and what I teach with my reps is 8-miling is this concept of if there’s an objection that you know you’re going to get, say it first. There’s actually a lot of psychology behind this.
First of all, when you say it, it has less sting. All my salespeople out there, you know what it feels like when someone says, “I’m not interested.” You feel it, it hurts. But if you say, “I’m sure you’re not interested”, you’ve stated it, it takes the sting away. “I’m sure you’re not looking, I’m sure you’re not interested, I know you hate this cold call, I know you’re probably going to hang up on me.” You say it first, it keeps you in control, it builds your confidence.
But the second part actually helps establish you as an authority. If you can say the unspoken objection, you actually build trust with your prospect and buyer. Remember that theme I was talking about, understanding people? “This person gets me, they get what I’m saying.” This idea of 8-miling is say you’re making cold calls and consistently people are like, “We’re too busy for this.”
You start to say it. “I’m sure you’re swamped right now and way too busy for this call, but that’s actually the reason why I wanted to hit you up. Because if you’re too busy for this call, then it means you’re probably too busy to [insert whatever problem that it is that you solve]” and go from there. That’s what 8-miling is, getting ahead of the objection, saying it first and staying in control.
Fred Diamond: KD, I want to follow up with that. You’ve worked with a lot of sales reps. One thing we talked in the pre-show is about the challenge even today of hiring, retaining and motivating top-tier talent. It’s still the table stake #1 challenge for all sales leaders for the most part. What are reps doing wrong? You’ve tutored, you’ve coached, you’ve mentored, you’ve spoken many times, you’ve written. What do you think reps are doing wrong right now that is really inhibiting their success?
Kevin Dorsey: This might be to blunt, and if it is, people can chase me down on LinkedIn and whatever else. But truthfully, I feel most reps don’t actually take their careers as serious as they could and should. Most salespeople – and this applies to vets and news, I’m not just calling on my new sales reps, I’m calling out the vets too – put more time and dedication to their high school sport, band or hobby than they have their sales career, period. Point blank, I’m going to call it out.
They played junior high basketball and were willing to practice five hours a week for junior high basketball. Most sales reps don’t practice five hours a quarter, some of them not a year. Everyone’s got time for Netflix marathons and no one has time for a sales book. Everyone’s got time for YouTube, no one’s got time to review their calls. They just don’t take it seriously.
Whatever it is that they’re selling, they’re selling to HR, they’re selling to finance, they don’t immerse themselves into where their prospects live. What are the forums the prospects are in? What are the magazines the prospect subscribes to? What are the Google Alerts that would make the prospect’s world better? Who are the thought leaders of the prospects? They don’t take it seriously.
That is where I think most sales reps go wrong. They don’t treat it like the career and the gift that it is. Sales is such a gift, I truly believe it’s one of the best careers you can have. What other career out there could someone like myself have and to make the money that I make and have the impact that I have other than sales? It’s amazing.
Fred Diamond: KD, you’re giving better answer after better answer. We started doing the webcast every single day once the pandemic kicked in. Julianne just said, “Great answer. Thank you so much, we are a profession.”
One thing that came out was we were doing the webcast every single day back in April, May and June last year when nobody was buying anything. Everybody was trying to figure out, where are we? Every customer was in the same boat unless they needed mask or protection equipment.
The thing that we realized is if you’re a professional, be a professional. If you’re a sales professional, what is a sales professional doing right now? They are doing things like you just said, they are learning about their customer. They’re immersing themselves in the customer’s industry.
When people ask me, “Fred, how can I be successful in my sales career?” there are so many different ways. But the first thing I always say is get to know an industry intimately. I live in Northern Virginia and there’s a very wealthy town not far from here and it’s called Great Falls. I used to have this line where I would say, “All those huge houses in Great Falls, besides the corporate attorneys, the people who live there is the guy who sold Dell Computers to the navy and the guy who sold Cisco routers to the air force.”
But in order to be that guy, you have to intimately know the needs of the marketplace, the history of the marketplace, the challenges your customers are facing. I’m just curious here, what are some of the positive things that have come out over the last year that you see continuing to implement moving into the future?
Kevin Dorsey: I do think remote work is a positive. I do think it’s something that opens up a talent pool that a lot of people wouldn’t have access to. I do think that it will, hopefully once all this does clean up a little bit, allow people to live and experience places that maybe they wouldn’t before because they couldn’t move away from their job. I do believe that will be a positive from this.
We mentioned this before, my team was in Santa Monica, I’m now in Austin. I’ve been able to hire in Austin and Atlanta and across the country to talent pools that I wouldn’t have had access to before. I think that is definitely a positive in all of this.
The second positive I’ll give here is an optimistic positive. I don’t know if it will happen, but I really hope that it does. We have been so disconnected from each other, we can Zoom and we can text and whatever else but it’s not the same connection. My hope is as these things start to lift, that the connections become more intentional. Where we value that time together a little bit more.
Maybe when we’re sitting down for lunch or for dinner at the park, maybe the phone isn’t out too. Maybe we do things more intentionally with our time and our focus. I know it’s been a positive impact on myself, I really try to focus now when I’m with someone, I’m with someone. I’ve had all year to be in front of screens. How about when I’m not in front of a screen I can be intentional about it? That’s a secondary hope that comes from this as a positive.
Fred Diamond: We have a question from Regina, “How has KD changed as a leader in the past few months?” That’s an interesting question. You’re a very introspective guy, you’ve given a lot of thought to this. I’m really enjoying this conversation because we talk about this stuff all day long and it’s so critical to implement. But before we get to our last question, how have you changed as a sales leader over the last year?
Kevin Dorsey: The last year is very different even from the last three months. I think over the last year I’ve had to be significantly more proactive with my communication, with my team and my managers. I don’t think any of us, for those of us that were in the office really grasped how many inorganic conversations we have during the day.
By inorganic, I don’t mean inauthentic, meaning just like the water cooler chat. Like I run into a rep in the hallway, “Hey, how are things going?” “I’m struggling with this.” A lot of those micro interactions. When we went fully remote, it took about two, three months and I realized there’s people I haven’t spoken to. I just haven’t spoken to this individual on my team in months because those inorganic conversations weren’t happening. That’s a place as a leader that I’ve had to grow and literally set reminders of, “Who haven’t I spoken to in a while? Maybe I should.” That’s one area.
Two, improving more so around written communication skills because again, in the office when you’re standing in front of somebody, when you walk into a room, that energy is there. I have a feeling, Fred, when you walk into a room and you’re delivering a training, you carry an energy about you before you even say a word.
That doesn’t come across the same in a Zoom. Being, again, not over the top but trying to bring that energy more often and really trying to communicate things in a light that can be understood. Also, the Slack overwhelm is in. Slacks on top of Slacks, emails on top of emails and you can read that in whatever tone that you want.
I’ve also gotten better with video messages, sending micro video messages to people so it can’t be misconstrued what I was saying or what the tone of it was. I think that’s there and then patience. This probably isn’t a fair answer for me to give, but I think I have gotten a little more patient over the past year of looking and saying, okay, where does it even make sense to apply pressure, focus and force or not?
Getting better at prioritizing. It’s not trying to tackle the world but say, hey, there’s a lot of things going on right now that are outside of our control. Because of that, I need to be a little bit more patient. I can’t push against a wall, it’s not worth it. I think those are areas that I have grown as a leader.
Also, I’m walking more now. It took me long enough, but you mentioned your stand-up desk, I have a stand-up desk but I was just standing all day. I got a little baby treadmill under my desk now so I’m actually hitting my steps every single day now. I’ve gotten into journaling this year, I had never really gotten into journaling but I’ve got my journal here now. I’ve continued to grow, evolve and change and fail and mess up and do it all over again. I’m trying. Far from perfect, man, I’m trying.
Fred Diamond: We’ve got time for one more question, then I’m going to ask you for your final action step. You’ve given us so many great ideas so let’s see what we’ve got here. We have a question here that comes in from Gerald, “What are KD’s expectations for sales professionals right now?” That’s a question we ask not infrequently, so thanks again for the question, Gerald. What do you expect?
Like you mentioned in the beginning, it’s May but we’re probably still going to be working from home for the foreseeable future. We have some of our large corporate members who said they’re going to be keeping people home till the end of the year, it’s not going to be till January. This is the way it’s going to be, but what are your expectations? Then I’m going to ask you for your final action step.
Kevin Dorsey: Expectations for salespeople right now. I’m trying to think how to answer, because it’s very broad. When I think about the expectations I have for salespeople right now, is efficient execution. Stop taking 9 hours to get something done that should only take 5. You aren’t driving anymore, there’s no more commuting. You’re not spending an hour at the airport terminal, there’s no flying. There are so many places that we used to spend all this time that got removed. Why are things taking just as long now?
Where did this time disappear to? This is something that I talk about with my own team. There are less meetings now, there are less in-the-office distractions now. There are less things that pull you away, why is it still taking 8 hours now? This is what I’d encourage people to think about. How can you get it done more efficiently? If it took you 8 hours in the office, it shouldn’t take you 8 hours out of the office because there’s less distractions to pull you away.
Unless you’re giving up your time to other people and you’re letting that phone pop up and you’re letting social media pop up and you’re walking around, you’re not staying focused. That’s my expectations. Let’s get efficient. We’re remote now, get efficient, get it done. What a world that would be if you worked seven to noon and were done.
Fred Diamond: I would encourage people to do that as well. A lot of people are still working the same way they were last year. People are looking to fill their time. It’s like okay, I had a good day, I did 50 emails and whatever it is but are you really optimizing not just your time, but the right activities as well?
KD, you’ve given us so many great ideas. I want to acknowledge you. When we announced that you were going to be our guest today we got a lot of great feedback. You were the theme of my LinkedIn post on Monday and we got dozens of nice comments. A lot of people know you out there, you have a great reputation so congratulations to you for all your success and best wishes on your continued success. Thank you for the great ideas today.
You’ve given us 30 great ideas, we’re getting some nice comments here. Lisa says thank you so much, Giselle says thank you so much. KD, give us one final action step. Something people must do right now as they’re coming to the end of this webinar or podcast to take their sales career to the next level.
Kevin Dorsey: We’ll go super tactical here. For all my salespeople and my sales leaders, what you all need to do is you all need to go do 50 customer interviews. You are going to go talk to 50 customers and you are going to ask them these specific questions. Why did you buy? What problem were you hoping to solve? What were you afraid of before buying? Who ended up making the decision? What’s your favorite part about the product? What’s changed the most since you’ve bought? How would you describe what we do to another persona?
If you go ask those questions of 50 customers, I promise you, your sales results will improve. Because the why did they buy? There’s your value prop. What problems were they hoping to solve? There are your subject lines, your first sentences, your bullet points and your discovery questions. What were they afraid of before buying? There’s your 8-Mile and your unspoken objections. What are they not telling you in the sales process?
What was the sales process? Now you know who you actually need to convince behind the scenes. What’s their favorite part? There’s your values. What they love the most, there’s your case studies. And how would they describe it is how you start to get yourself to speak their language.
When I came to PatientPop, someone asked us, what is PatientPop? And the response was, “We’re an all-in-one practice growth platform.” How many doctors do you think described PatientPop as an all-in-one practice growth platform?
Fred Diamond: Not too many.
Kevin Dorsey: None, zero, zilch of all the ones that I spoke to. You have to learn their language. That would be my parting advice to everybody. Back to what you asked me earlier about taking your career seriously, this is taking your career seriously. You will learn how to sell better by asking those questions to 50 customers. Then you go to the world, you bring that message out, you close more deals and you do it the right way. That would be my parting advice.
Fred Diamond: We’ve got Stefan who says, “Blown away by that answer, thank you so much.” Once again, Kevin “KD” Dorsey, thank you so much.
Kevin Dorsey: Thanks for having me, man.
Transcribed by Mariana Badillo