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Today’s show featured an interview with Marin Laukka, The Joyfully Financial Speaker. She’s the author of Ready Enough: Your 7-Step Guide for Life’s Hardest Decisions.
IES Women in Sales Program Director Gina Stracuzzi conducted the interview.
Find Marin on LinkedIn.
MARIN’S ADVICE: “Step into the version of you that already has the success, or that just got the negotiation, or just got the pay that you know that you deserve. What is that version of you like? What does she think? What does she do in the morning? What does she eat for dinner? What kind of conversations is she having around the workplace? How does she interact with a younger woman who’s asking for her advice?
THE PODCAST BEGINS HERE
Gina Stracuzzi: Today, our guest is Marin Laukka, and she talks to us about joyful budgeting and the mindset that it takes to really be comfortable with your money and how you use it and spend it. For a lot of people, budgeting is a horrible idea and just treads fear in people. But I think we can have fun with it, and it’s really, even if you’re not a budgeter, I think this conversation is for you because it’s really about financial mindset. Welcome, Marin.
Marin Laukka: Thank you so much. If anyone else is feeling freaked out by the word budget, just pretend it doesn’t exist for a short while and you’ll see how all this works. Truly is joyful and very impactful, especially on the mindset side of things.
Gina Stracuzzi: Why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into what you do now?
Marin Laukka: I have, as we all do, a little windy story to get to where I am now. I started in dance and I share that little tidbit just to say that I’ve been in a place where mindset and mental health wasn’t necessarily the priority. That was at least my experience in the dance field. Personal experience really led me to want to find a place where I could take care of my own and others’ mental health. That inadvertently led me to psychology in undergrad. I studied abroad in Copenhagen during my undergrad studies and studied positive psychology in Denmark. I learned about this subfield of psychology that is positive psychology, and it meshed so well with my personality because it’s very forward-thinking.
It basically answers the question, how do we help people and communities and families and work go well? What can we do to help everyone flourish and be proactive in these conversations rather than waiting until the burnout or the stress or the mental illness has hit? Granted, they’re both important parts of the conversation, but my personality, my approach really leaned toward that positive psych lens.
I ended up studying positive psych in graduate school as well. That’s my master’s degree, is positive psychology. All along the way, I was also dabbling in life coaching and yoga instruction. I started my own practice with a coaching based business in 2018, started generally pretty broad, wrote a book about decision making as I was coaching more women to make really confident decisions. What does that mean when you feel confident in your own decisions and what needs to be there? Again, referring to positive psych as well. The more conversations I had around that, the more I saw that there was this thing in the back of the room, and that is money. How do we fund those decisions that happen? What does it mean to your finances when you’re making decisions like career change or divorce or moving?
I also just take a personal interest in that, went on to add my budget coaching certification to my repertoire. Now that is really my introduction to most conversations, whether it’s on the one-on-one side of my practice or the speaking side of my practice, which has really taken off in the last few years. It still has that positive psychology, wellness proactive spin to it, but through the lens of money, which everyone relates to, I find that when we talk directly about it, it really helps us to feel less scared because it’s talking about the thing that a lot of us get caught up on anyway, especially when it comes to making decisions or doing something like sales and your work, just doing a good job. But we can have these direct conversations about it.
I like to say I bring this joy and levity to it, and I help it feel like not a scary subject that we just want to rush through or follow some cookie-cutter rule book, but actually take and use as your own. Like the conference, use as your own superpower, is how can we refine that to be something that feels good to you and takes you where you want to go?
Gina Stracuzzi: Certainly, I think Americans could really learn something from other cultures in terms of positivity. We tend to gravitate towards the negativity of something, like something is hard or something is going to cause me stress, rather than finding the joy in it. I love that approach. Let’s talk a little bit about your own financial journey.
You told us a little bit about the pivotal moment, when you were starting your other practices and you realized that behind all of it is, how am I going to finance this? That’s the truth for a lot of people. We have these things we want to do, but we don’t know how to make it happen financially. There is so much uncertainty that you can really appreciate why people feel the need to squirrel away money and be tight with it rather than funding their dreams. Talk to us a little bit about how that shaped your approach to coaching women in the mind-eff middle. I love that. Tell us what that means.
Marin Laukka: Let’s start with what that is. I came up with this term in collaboration with other of my coaches and support team too, the more I was having these conversations about the themes I was seeing in my speaking events and one-on-one client work. This term, the mind-eff middle, feels like it captures where I saw a really big gap in the financial industry, and I think a lot of women identify with this feeling of the mind-eff. What it is, is a lot of financial advice is out there, importantly, for anyone who is budgeting in order to make ends meet. You need to get out of the paycheck-to-paycheck cycle, get out of debt, gain control of your finances. There’s a lot of support out there for that group of individuals.
There’s also a lot of support out there for wealth management. Once you have a really good flow of money and you’re to a point where you can fully delegate it to your financial advisor, or go to a financial planner just once a quarter or something that’s relatively minimal and offload that work, because you’re feeling confident in what you have. Then there’s this mind-eff middle that I don’t see a lot of resources really tailoring to, and I found myself in the mind-eff middle and it’s unsettling to be in the mind-eff middle and not know where to go.
At least for me, and I see this happen for my clients as well, if you’re there but there aren’t resources to really speak to your specific situation, you’re going to try to put advice on yourself by either of those ends of the spectrum I just explained, and they don’t pertain to you. It’s not actually helpful advice when it’s not specific to your situation. That’s the conversation that I like to bring to light. Of course, everyone can benefit from a joyful budget, but I really like supporting this group in the middle. You have a good inflow, probably more than average or more than your peers even, but you don’t feel that sense of confidence and assurance that, ‘I for sure have it all covered. I can fully delegate it because I’m feeling settled and good.’
Sometimes that mind-eff middle is a career change. Maybe your income is changing in the household, maybe you just received a really big gift, and for the first time, actually you have money to manage, but is it enough to support your life and for how long? I used to be in a place where I didn’t have this much money, and can I actually talk about that? Again, this mind-eff feeling of, there’s money here, but is it enough and what would it cover and what decisions can I make and feel confident in based on my situation? That’s the mind-eff middle.
Gina Stracuzzi: You raise a really good point, because a lot of our listeners, they’re good income earners, and this segment of the podcast is geared toward women. As women, we’re getting more and more financial literacy and freedom than say you had even three, four decades ago. I was just thinking this morning when I was preparing for this conversation, I can remember when my mom couldn’t even get a credit card at JCPenney or something without my father’s signature. We’ve come a long way, baby, as this tagline goes. But not to the point where we have I think the complete mindset of comfort and feeling secure in that, as you just pointed out.
It’s still very tied to the family writ large and women still find themselves in a bad place should they go through a divorce or their husband passes away, or whatever the case is. I like that your whole practice is not just about make sure you have a good budget, but it’s the mindset of money. That is something that I think, as we were just discussing, as women, we are just getting to where we have our own mindset versus separate from our husbands or our parents or whatever the case is. I think you’re going to have a lot of business for a long time.
Marin Laukka: Yeah. To your point of women, of course there’s been so many strides made, but yeah, it’s really not that long ago. I think the credit card law, I may be getting too mixed up, but was ’85. There was another one about getting business loans that required a male signature for a really long time, maybe ‘77, ‘85, something like that. But that’s pretty recent in terms of creating new modes of relating with money. Still, the stats, when you look at them, two thirds of households, generally speaking, the male is the decision maker. Something like 90%, especially of the high-income-earner households, the man is typically the one in charge of just knowing, be more knowledgeable about finances, which is, to your point of divorce or if there’s a death. Or even like you’re saying, the mindset piece, and that’s of course why I focus on this, it’s just so customary to go to men traditionally, but also just to others, instead of, how do I feel about this? What do I really want? What are my values? How can I then relate with money in a way that aligns with me and what feels good for me?
Gina Stracuzzi: My husband turned over the finances to me early on in our marriage. He’s like, “You clearly are better at it.”
Marin Laukka: Amazing. I love it.
Gina Stracuzzi: Yeah. I was like, “Yeah, I won’t be able to come to you for every little thing because it’ll make me crazy.” He’s like, “You got it.”
Talk to us about how you help your clients strike a balance, and let’s keep all of this in the mindset of the conference, and what you want to talk to the attendees about. Because as Fred mentioned, the whole theme of the conference is, really what I want women to walk away with is understanding their unique value, how to articulate that, how to get your worth, understanding what you bring to the table, and whether that’s negotiating with a client or negotiating with your boss for what you need, and understanding the mindset that goes beyond that. You and I talked a little bit about how you help clients strike a balance between thinking about their money and how they’re going to use that in the future.
I think they’re all tied together in my mind. If you’ve got plans, you’ve got to figure out how to fund those plans. If the stumbling block is getting what you need and deserve, whether it’s directly from your employer or your business or your clients, if that’s where you get hung up, is asking for a fair price, then that’s going to be problematic. Can you talk to us about that a little bit?
Marin Laukka: There’s so many directions I could go with this, and obviously that’s why we have a whole conference around this topic, because it’s that important. I’m excited to have the conversation there to also see where it takes us and the conversations that lead on the other side of it. But striking a balance, can you repeat the first part of the question just to make sure I address exactly the balance?
Gina Stracuzzi: Part of the conference is learning to articulate your value so that you can stand strong in your request. Whether it’s, as I said, from a boss or a client or getting a fair price for your service or your product. Then thinking about all the things that you want to fund and what your dreams are, because that’s where people get stymied. They have all these ideas and plans and dreams, but then when it comes time to ask for what they need to make that happen, things get muddled.
Marin Laukka: For me and for a lot of my clients, and I’ll have a little bit of a caveat on this, because it might be a little bit different for you, but for me and a lot of my clients, it is getting really clear on the why. You’re actually speaking to that directly. What is the purpose of having a higher salary? What is the purpose of building a side business in addition to what you’re currently doing? What is the purpose of going for this sale with this specific client? Why? Why is that important? Why are you asking for this raise? The five-layer-deep why, not just, “Well, because I’m stressed with finances,” or, “Well, because I think I deserve more,” or, “Because I’ve been working here for how many years,” or, “It would just feel cool to gain this client.”
It’s like, “Okay, you’ve been working here for five years, why does that feel important?”
“Well, because I bring a lot of value and I want to keep working here.”
“Why do you want to keep working here?”
“Because my quality of life.”
That’s where the coaching comes into play. Digging, digging, digging until you find something that you feel the fire light under you and you’re like, “This is why.” It’s so clear. Then negotiation conversations and the mindset around those conversations becomes way less wishy-washy, for lack of a better word. Because if we go in just thinking, “I deserve more,” even from the point, and I understand the frustration, but even if we’re going into it from a place of frustration, like, “Well, so-and-so is making this,” that angst or justification doesn’t hold a whole lot of weight in a crucial conversation.
Finding your why, finding your reason, and that’s one of my favorite pieces of joyful budgeting. The detail side of that is that we quite literally lay out, what do you want? What is your first priority? You have a trip you’ve wanted to take with your family for three years and it keeps getting postponed because X, Y, Z reasons. If we put it in and we actually put a real number to it and a real goal that feels attainable, and then a date to it, what happens with, one, making it automatic? Two, again, that why and that reason for making certain decisions on your day-to-day, or asking for that raise that you’ve been shy to ask for up until this point. It has to come from that clear why that links to you.
The caveat I alluded to earlier is that if you’re not a why person, there’s a book and a conversation tactic called Crucial Conversations. I love it. I refer to clients all the time to have this. I think this also applies to this balance that you’re speaking to. If you think of a Venn diagram. On either side there’s you and there’s whoever you’re talking to, your client, your boss, whoever it is. Then in the middle there’s, in this practice, crucial conversations, they call it the shared pool of meaning, which is a fancy way of saying, what is the thing both of you agree on.
Semi-unrelated example of this, but I think really depicts it well, there was a time when I had a traditional job, and I think my dad could finally take a breath, relax, and be like, “Okay, she’s good.” Then I decided that I was going to quit that job and start my own practice. I knew that was a crucial conversation and I needed to approach it. I wanted to approach it intentionally. Luckily, I was reading this book and this way of approaching conversations at the time. I was thinking, “Well, what do I want and my dad want at the same time here?”
Essentially, I wanted to be happy and to be feeling like I’m fulfilled at work and pursuing something that lights me up. He wanted me to be healthy and happy and well. It was actually quite similar. I started and led the conversation from that point of, “I know you want me to be happy. I know this is what you think is making me good and safe.” Then I explained it from that point. But there was something that we were both standing on together to lead the conversation.
I share that example because the why in these negotiation conversations or in a pursuit that you are going after that takes some courage, the why can be really helpful because it’s essentially giving you that foundation. But if the why doesn’t completely resonate, try to find something that’s between you and the situation, or you and the person. What is a shared thing there that you can come to, and then have the conversation from that point. It’s a practical application, but what it’s doing is it’s prioritizing your mindset in the conversation in addition to the logistics that you’ll probably get into. That maybe traditionally is the only thing that it’s focused on.
Gina Stracuzzi: We’ve talked a little bit about the societal and culture pressures of money. What’s a helpful question that women who struggle with feeling deserving of financial success or making financial decisions can ask themselves?
Marin Laukka: If you’re going after something or you’re making a change, and you’re maybe even having those crucial conversations already, or you’re figuring out your why, maybe that’s already clear. Then there’s another level to it and it’s if you feel like you’ve been doing all of that work, having the conversations, asking for what you’re wanting, and life still isn’t feeling like you thought it would, or you still feel like you’re not quite to the point that you want it to be, there’s a lot of factors that play into it, but one that we have so much control with and we can really play with is your belief systems, your perspectives that are shaping everything else. Mindset, essentially.
But the question to ask yourself is, it depends on the situation, but what am I bringing into this? What perspective am I assuming here? What belief is my top belief that I’m adopting in this situation? It might take some digging, it might take some journaling, it might take some asking of friends or colleagues to be like, “Do you see me acting like the person who would have this success that I’m wanting?” Sometimes people can be such great mirrors. They can be like, “Well, you’re really apologetic for every time you have those conversations,” or, “Well, you always give away so much of whatever you get. I don’t see you actually keeping it for yourself and for the success that you’re wanting to create or that you speak of. There’s kind of a leak there.”
That’s a good insight that maybe there’s some mindset or belief around you not being worthy of that, or that other people have to be successful first or happy first before you can focus on yourself. There can be so many different things that come into play in really sneaky ways. I call them sneaky because we can’t see them all the time, but asking yourself those questions of, what am I bringing into this situation? What perspective or assumption do I have about this? Maybe even asking a coach or a support system or a friend or colleague, do you see me acting in alignment with what I am saying that I’m wanting or not? Catching some of those fears before they keep you from what you absolutely deserve sooner than later.
Gina Stracuzzi: It leads to a really good point, Marin, that self-awareness is so crucial on so many levels. I hadn’t actually thought about it in terms of how women tend to devalue themselves. For years, employers would, and still do quite often, women still don’t necessarily make the same that men do for the same job with the same credentials. It is a societal message that we are not worthy. We incorporate that without even really fully appreciating it. Then when you tie that to whatever norms you were raised with and whatever messages you got at home, a lot of women just don’t appreciate their own value. They accept those cultural and societal pressures that say, “That’s okay, honey. Take the money we’re giving you and be appreciative.”
There’s a lot of really well-meaning employers, that’s not to point fingers, but it does all come to the mindset that you’re coaching against, and I’m sure you see it in your clients. It’s part of what I really want people to come away from this conference with, and it happens in not just negotiations for salary, but contract negotiations with clients. We hear this in the forum quite often. It is just so annoying for them too because they get there and it’s like, “Can we talk to the men?” Or they will push back with a number that is outrageous. Women feel like they would never put that number in front of a man, because they would get laughed at. It is a total mindset and I know you’re going to be a great part of this conversation at the conference and really help women stand in their strength for this. I’m super excited to have you be part of this.
We are at this part of the conversation where we like to ask our guests what they would tell people that they could put into place today to help their career, or in your case, their financial mindset, that will strengthen what they’re doing. What do you have for us?
Marin Laukka: I’ll give a few entrance points to this practice based on our conversation today. The coaching technique that’s really coming to mind is stepping into, and if you roll your eyes at this, I totally understand, because it sounds woo, but you guys, it just works. That’s why I share it. If you step into the mindset and the perspective of who would already have what you’re wanting, and this is why, when you see what would a man do online, this is why that works, is because you’re stepping into a different mindset and a different perspective to literally create different results.
Stepping into the version of you that already has the success, or that just got the negotiation, or just got the pay that you know that you deserve, what is that version of you like? What does she think? What does she do in the morning? What does she eat for dinner? What kind of conversations is she having around the workplace? How does she interact with a younger woman who’s asking for her advice?
It’s really stepping into that role and that mind and that perspective, even for two minutes in your day, or even for a second before replying to an email, to say, “Okay, I know what I would respond to. I would know how I would respond right now.” But if I already was in this place, or if I knew this was possible, really, how might I respond? It’s the little tweaks that happen, but that creates very, very real change. That’s how people get paid what they want to get paid and land jobs that old them wouldn’t have considered possible. But this new version of them, when they just step into that perspective of, “But what if it is possible for me? What if this is the conversation that changes it? Let’s try it. What’s my alternative? I just keep doing what I have been doing? If it hasn’t been leading to where I want it to lead, why not try something new and step into a new place?”
Asking that question, what would that version of me be like, say, feel, and then try it in little ways throughout your day of just asking that filter for a second. Then going forward and trying on just a little bit different variation of what you traditionally do.
Gina Stracuzzi: It’s kind of like laying out your ideal client. What do they look like? What do they think? What kind of car do they drive? Really drilling down, and I like that, because it’s okay to have ideal people in your life. Like, “I wish I could be that brave,” or that strong, or that confident, whatever the case is. I think that’s great advice. Not woo at all. Marin Laukka, thank you so much for joining us, the Joyful Budget. I know you’re going to be a big hit at the conference, and thank you very much for joining us and we will see you in September.
Transcribed by Mariana Badillo