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Today’s show featured an interview with James Muir, author of “Unsticking Deals,” and his colleague Patti Peets, Chief Revenue Officer, Unislink.
Find James on LinkedIn. Find Patti on LinkedIn.
JAMES’ TIP: “Be a domain expert in addition to being a sales expert. If you’re a new salesperson, what that means is you need to master your industry so well that if the person that you sell to said, “Hey, I’m going to be gone for a month, could you come in and sit in and do my job for me for a month while I’m on vacation?” If you can say you can do that, then you’ve learned enough about your industry. Until you can say that, you need to keep grinding until you understand that, because what’s going to happen is the credibility that you’ll have with clients when you’re with them will go off the charts.”
PATTI’S TIP: “Really go through every deal in your pipeline. If it’s been in that stage for more than 14 days maybe, or 21 days, you should go through that list of questions to really score yourself and be honest with yourself, and then admit this deal is stuck. Then put a plan together, follow some of those methods and techniques that James offers up, and watch what happens. You will have deals that literally unstick, and maybe not every deal, but you will have deals that get unstuck by following this process.”
THE PODCAST BEGINS HERE
Fred Diamond: We’re talking to the author James Muir of Unsticking Deals. I asked him to bring on one of his partners, one of his customers who has actually implemented some of the great things that James talks about, and he did. He brought on Patti Peets. You may recall James has been on the show before when he wrote, I thought it was one of the best books I ever read on sales called The Perfect Close. Good for you James. I’ve read this book, it’s great. I recommend it to everybody. You tell some great stories and you go into some details about what people should be doing.
We’re at an interesting place right now with B2B sales. We’re doing the interview towards the end of 2024 and I think it’s safe to say that everything has changed. At the Institute for Excellence in Sales, a lot of companies that we work with, they’re large organizations with big B2B and B2G sales organizations, and they’re looking for ways to be more effective, for ways to have their sales professionals be more engaged with customers, and they’re looking for ways to engage their team. I’m looking forward to getting into that with both of you.
James, it’s good to have you back. For our listeners who aren’t familiar with you, who didn’t listen to the first show, tell us a little bit about yourself.
James Muir: I’m an SVP of sales myself for a $30 million a year company in the healthcare revenue cycle space. Got my own teams, we’re out there duking it out in the streets every day. But I’m also the founder of Best Practice International and the author of three bestselling books, one of which we’re going to talk about today. Most people know me from my other book, that we did the other show on, which is The Perfect Close. That whole business is just a labor of love for me because I love speaking and teaching.
Fred Diamond: Once again, I encourage people, go to salesgamechangerspodcast.com and search Muir and you’ll find the transcript and the audio to the show that we did. I think we did that show in the heat of the pandemic. Now we’re coming out of the pandemic.
James Muir: A whole new set of changes now though.
Fred Diamond: A whole new set of changes. We’re going to be talking about that. Patti, I told James, to come back on the show, he needs to bring on a Chief Growth Officer, CRO, VP of Sales. He quickly must have called you on his bat phone or something, because I went right to your LinkedIn and said, “Yep, we’d love to have her on the show.” Tell us a little bit about yourself and your industry and where you work and what you do.
Patti Peets: Thanks for having me on. I am the Chief Revenue Officer, and as of today, the Chief Client Experience Officer as well, for UnisLink, which is a rev cycle management company serving clients across the country. Our purpose really is to help physicians build strong sustainable practices by providing RCM services, some smart analytics, some advanced technology, really helping them drive performance. I have a team of four reps on the sales team. We’re about to hire another, with a couple more planned for next year. Previous to being here, I was the senior VP of sales at another rev cycle management company and software company, and was there for about 11 years. Had about 14 reps on that team. I’ve been in rev cycle management for over 30 years, and that’s where I live and breathe.
Fred Diamond: For people who don’t know, explain what rev cycle management means.
Patti Peets: Revenue cycle management is the processes and services needed to manage the revenue cycle in a physician office. If you think about a physician practice, there’s a lot of things that happen from a front end operational standpoint, backend operational process, but it mainly comes down to how do you manage that revenue and get those claims out the door and get the claims paid and make sure that you’re following up on everything revenue related so that you can make sure that all of the revenue due a physician is coming in through the rev cycle management services.
Fred Diamond: How did you and James get to know each other? How did you guys come together?
Patti Peets: James and I have actually known each other for 25 years maybe. I owned my own company a long time ago, way long time ago, over 30 years ago. I sold that company to a company based out of Columbia, South Carolina, who ended up buying the company that James worked for in Salt Lake City. That was 25 years ago or so, and we met each other. Then I am a huge fan and follower of his ever since we met 25 years ago.
Fred Diamond: After I allow James to give us a little bit of an intro to the book, one reason why I asked you to come on the show, it’s to talk about how you’ve implemented some of this. I’m excited to get into that. James, I read both of your books. You said you did more than two, but I read The Perfect Close, of course, and I did read Unsticking Deals. I read it on a flight from Washington, DC to Tampa and it was great. I read it the entire time. It was good stuff. You went over a lot of the concepts from The Perfect Close as well to bring people up to speed with that. There’s just a lot of great advice for B2B sales leaders on how to effectively help their sales teams engage their customers right now.
Tell us a little bit about the book, Unsticking Deals. Tell us why you wrote it and tell us some of the highlights from the book.
James Muir: Stuck deals is arguably the biggest problem in selling. Between 40% and 60%, depending on the industry, of all sales are actually lost in no decision. That means that no decision is a problem. It effectively doubles the cost of every sale while simultaneously wasting about half of every sales guy’s time. It’s a very big problem. How I ended up writing the book is once I wrote Perfect Close, I had an opportunity to work with various different organizations, and I started to see this pattern. They’d bring me out thinking we’re going to talk about getting commitments, closing, and then after some discovery that conversation would end up turning into something around targeting or messaging or prospecting or motivation or other things that might be the actual reason why they’re not closing as much as they’d like.
I suppose that’s natural. The most obvious thing that’s not happening is deals aren’t coming in, they’re not closing, so it must be a closing problem. But after thousands of these conversations, at least half of the time, the root cause of their closing problem really wasn’t about asking for commitments at all. It really just fell into three basic categories. This book was intended, I actually had a client that said, “Hey, we’ve got a huge bloated pipeline. We’re trying to figure out how to get all our deals over the finish line. Could you do some education for us on this?” I’m a very big reader, and I wanted to just send them a book and say, “Here, read this. It’ll tell you how to unbloat your pipeline.” But I couldn’t find it, so I ended up writing the book myself.
I just took all these insights from all of these different discoveries that I’ve done and tried to simplify it down so that people can easily diagnose what’s causing the stall, and then what are the practical things they can do to unstall their deal? Then maybe as a step to try to be proactive about it, I said, “Well, the best way to handle it is just not to have it ever stall to begin with.” If you do certain things at the very beginning, you can basically prevent them from sticking, or at least unstick them at will.
Fred Diamond: There’s obviously a million ways that deals can get stuck. You say stuck deals are usually caused by just three things. Before I ask Patti for some of her ideas and how she’s worked with you, can you tell us what those three things?
James Muir: They basically boil down to sales issues. That means they’re self-inflicted problems. It’s things that the sales folks are doing in their sales process that’s causing their deal to stick. They’re literally the cause. Obviously, it’s the easiest to fix too, because you can fix the way you’re approaching it, and then the problem goes away. Client indecision is the next biggest one, and it’s just the customer has an inability to make a decision, so these deals just go on and on and on and on. Sometimes they’ll still talk to you, but they can’t seem to make a decision. Then the last is business case issues, where they basically just stall because there’s something about the business case that’s being offered that is not meeting the customer’s need, or it’s not making it a priority. But those three things, sales issues, client indecision, and business case issues, every stall can fall into one of those three categories.
Fred Diamond: Patti, do you agree? Is that what you found? How has working with James helped you? You mentioned you have a 25-year relationship. He’s bringing these ideas to you. How has it helped you and your team? First off, do you agree? Does this all make sense?
Patti Peets: Everything James says makes sense to me. He helps me tremendously, not only as an individual, but as a sales leader. I think it’s his approach where he can take some very complex strategies and he just has this gift of simplifying them to where they become very, very practical. You read it and you think, “This is so simple.” It’s like The Perfect Close. If you read The Perfect Close, it’s the simplest thing in the world. A couple of questions, and you’ll always advance the deal. In sales, it’s always about advancing the deal. Unsticking Deals is exactly the same way. It’s a way to get beyond the theory and just get real about simple, practical technique
To me, a couple of the things that has been the most helpful about this particular book is identifying the leading indicators. James, you mentioned it before, the worst thing is a no decision. The ultimate most frustrating thing for a sales leader is when you’re talking to a rep about a deal, you’re going through the pipeline, you’re managing the pipeline, and then the closed lost reason is no decision. To me, there’s always a reason. The reason is because the deal got stuck. What stuck the deal? Because the reason we haven’t gotten that decision is because the deal did get stuck.
Really trying to dissect what causes a deal to get stuck, and then also how to prevent deals from ever getting stuck. What it has allowed me to do as a sales leader is just enhance those areas of the sales process. For example, discovery, which to me, discovery is the most important part of the sales process. If you really enhance your discovery process and look at all the things that you can do to prevent a deal from getting stuck, you can prevent some of those things from happening just because you’ve tuned up and done a better job on the front end of your sales cycle.
He has things in this book, like his other book as well, which is called the Deal Assessment Tool, that really allows you to go through the leading indicators, identifying deals that are stuck, and trying to understand what those things are. Those are a couple of ways that I’ve used his strategies to help change the way that we’re looking at things. Instead of having to identify that deal as going dark, you’re proactive. We’ve done a lot of things. We even have our CRM system with a dashboard that shows stalled deals so that you can configure your CRM based on, I think we have it set at 21 days. You could even get more sophisticated than that and start looking at it proactively at 7 days, 14 days, or 21 days. It’s just loaded with lots of valuable things that you can use.
Fred Diamond: James, you gave us five very practical ways of preventing deals from getting stuck in the first place. Talk about two of them that stood out for me, securing executive sponsorship, and I believe the second one was called mutual action plans. Talk about secure executive sponsorship first, and then talk about mutual action plans.
James Muir: Those are probably the two most popular. Securing executive sponsorship just means going to an executive level person and asking them, “Hey, are you willing to help us out with this?” There’s a letter in the book that you can literally pull out of your folder and show them. I promise you, your competitors are not doing it. But it basically says, “Hey, here’s what executive sponsorship means.” One of those things is that when the deal gets stuck, or we don’t seem to be making progress anymore, can I come back to you and count on you to restart the process? In complex B2B sales, which is what Patti and I both have specialized in for years, you got a lot of stakeholders. Not every stakeholder is necessarily thinking that this initiative is a win for them.
Sometimes you need that executive sponsorship to unstick the deal. But if you do that at the very beginning of the process, then anytime there’s any issues, you can send a message back to our executive sponsor, say, “Hey, this is a challenge we’re bumping into. Can you help out?” A way to make that good as you go through the process is every time something happens and you’re making progress, just keep reporting back to the executive. Because the stories that I hear from my clients is they go in and the CEO says, “Hey, I heard that you guys are here and here,” and they’re reporting it back and they’re like, “Oh, wow, this must be important to the CEO because he’s keeping up to date on all the advances that we’re making as part of our initiative here.”
That basically gets us to a point where if we do have any issues, we can always just go back to the executive sponsor and say, “Hey, can you help me out? I’m trying to get to this person. I can’t seem to get to them.” They write an email, boom, you’ve got the audience that you need. That’s probably the most popular.
The mutual action plans is a little bit like being a project manager. I know as I’ve had salespeople say, “James, you’re turning me into a project manager.” The truth is, you are, and the project is for the client to achieve some goal. An easy way to get a mutual action plan built together is just ask them, “Hey, what are the steps you’re going to go through as you guys go about your evaluation and implementing this, whatever the solution you choose?”
Then you just listen. Then you write it down and you figure out, who’s going to do this part? Who’s going to do this part? Then you can create a little project plan for them. All you’re doing after that is helping them get to the next stage in their plan. Part of that will be evaluating you, but it might also mean they’re going to evaluate some competitors, I would imagine, or some alternatives to whatever they’re looking at you for, but it will give you a way to touch them on a regular basis. Sometimes salespeople run out of reasons to engage the customer, but if you’re helping them, it’s basically you are mutual, that’s the important word there, mutually trying to help them achieve the goal.
The goal is to produce the result. The goal isn’t to buy your stuff. The goal is to achieve whatever the goal is of their investment that they’re about to make. The mutual action plan doesn’t end when the contract is signed. You have to go through the implementation piece. Patti could comment on that at some length because she is in charge of that at UnisLink, where not only is she in charge of the revenue generating piece, the sales machine, but she’s also in charge of the process where that gets then handed over to the operations people that then are responsible for producing the results.
Fred Diamond: Patti, I’d like you to give us a teaching moment, if you don’t mind. We have a lot of new sales managers who are listening, who listen frequently to the Sales Game Changers Podcast. One of the challenges over the last couple years, again, we’re doing today’s interview in December of 2024, is because of the pandemic, the traditional way that we’ve trained new sales leaders has gone a little bit by the wayside. Because people are working from home and there wasn’t a lot of formal type training even that goes on at that level. A lot of them that we’ve talked to, and we talk to them all the time, are struggling with a lot of ways to lead and manage their teams. What might be your teaching moment for new sales managers on how to work with their teams or their younger sales professionals, or even senior ones that are struggling with stuck deals?
Patti Peets: It’s a great question. I think a couple of things is anytime that you’re doing sales training, as I was thinking through the podcast and thinking of items throughout the book that that really resonated with me and my style, and James knows this about me, but anytime I read a sales book, I immediately start trying to flip it in my head on how I’m going to train salespeople on the concepts and principles of a book. I think I’ve done that my whole life, and I think it just helps stick it, no pun intended, but it helps stick the concepts and the principles in my head.
Another thing that I’ve learned through sales training pre and post COVID, is that the sales training has got to be engaging. Of course, if you get a bunch of people on a Zoom call or a Teams call and you just go through a PowerPoint and you’re reading the PowerPoint from a training material, they’re either going to be multitasking for sure, or they’re going to fall asleep, either one.
One thing that’s really great about James’s style and the two books that he has done that we’ve used, it has a lot of workbooks and a lot of assessment tools where it engages the sales rep. It’s not just a lecture on here’s the principles, but it’s like, “Here’s a worksheet. Identify a deal that you have. Go through these leading indicator questions, asking yourself all these questions and score that deal, and then come up with a plan on what you’re going to do to unstick that deal.” It’s an actionable aid. That’s really, really helpful. James does that beautifully in both of the books that he does. I use that.
James Muir: I would say the single best thing that a new manager can do is to model the behavior that they want to see from their salespeople. Patti does that amazingly. She is on most of the calls where they’re doing assessments, she’s on most of the discovery calls. Her sales tend to be larger, complex sales. They can have a lot of stakeholders, there’s a lot of moving parts, and they’re high value opportunities. Patti, you do that better than any manager that I know. She is a domain expert in addition to being a sales expert. To watch her do her work with the sales team, they are learning how that works. She’s literally modeling the behavior that she’s expecting from her team.
Patti Peets: I think that’s a key for any really good sales leader, is to model the concepts that you’re implementing because you want your reps to learn from you. Actually, this is a principle I learned from James many, many years ago you share. It’s a concept that I think I just truly believe in. You want everybody around you to know everything that you possibly know and get really good at it, so then you can move on and continue to do some other things and continue to grow and then share that information. But that is definitely something that I model for the team as well. But back to just how you train and do that, I think the visual aids and the engaging tools workshop style is a lot better, especially if you’re remote.
Then as we moved through COVID, I think that if you can get together, and you’re not reading material, but the other thing that you can do is you can provide a lot of material ahead of time. If you’re going to get together as a group and do some training, provide that material ahead of time so that when you’re together, you’re actually talking about it. You’re not just teaching the principles. You’re actually having conversations about, “What’d you think about that?” I was excited when you asked James about the first two principles, because to me, the hardest thing about the prevention of sticking deals is the anticipate and throttle information. That part of the book goes pretty deep in how important that is. To me, I think it’s the hardest thing. I definitely think identifying your executive sponsor, totally important. You’re not going to win a deal if you don’t do that.
There’s other things that if you don’t do, you’re not going to win that business. But if you don’t really know how to anticipate and throttle that information throughout the sales process, there’s a likelihood your deal’s going to get stuck. That concept, I think, is really important. But it’s a great example of if your sales team has read all that, done the exercises, done the workshop material prior to getting together, then you can sit around and actually have conversations about what did you get out of that. Share your workshop material and stuff like that. That’s how I approach sales training.
Fred Diamond: It’s a great way to do it. I love that concept of watching the modeling and it makes so much sense to do it, and you have to do it. We just had a meeting at the Institute for Excellence in Sales that I run with a world-class sales organization, one of the most successful companies in the world. They were talking about how half of their people just aren’t performing right now. You would think that they would have a high percentage of people, but even at the great companies right now with great products, the right market, things sometimes go wrong.
James, Patti gave a great answer before about client indecision. When a sales rep says, “Well, we’re in that state,” there’s a root cause for that. The client is never in indecision. There’s just something that’s not going right. What’s the best way to address this? You talk about it throughout the book, of course, but what do you think is the best way to address client indecision?
James Muir: Client indecision is an interesting problem. It actually is made up of a couple of different components. There’s this comparison challenge that there is, that the client’s going through, they’re trying to figure out and weigh the different options. There is informational issues. But then there’s this outcome uncertainty. In my opinion, I think those other two are just a symptom of outcome uncertainty, meaning if I don’t know that I’m going to get the right outcome, it makes me want to compare things more because then I can be more sure of the outcome. Or it keeps making me ask for more and more information because I don’t know what the outcome’s going to be. If I just finally got to that right level of information, I know, okay, I’m confident now.
The good news about what I just said there is any strategy that helps resolve outcome uncertainty will also address those other two. You don’t need to get it right necessarily. You don’t have to diagnose it perfectly as long as you’re addressing outcome uncertainty. Let me just throw it to the way Patti’s business is. They work on a contingency basis. Meaning if they collect a dollar, they keep like five cents of the dollar, which means if they don’t collect anything, they don’t get anything. Their interests are 100% aligned with their client’s interest. That makes for a very compelling story when talking to a client because they know that her company has a very strong desire to produce the most and best possible outcomes for their client because it’s the only way that they make money. If your business is wired in such a way that you can get paid for only the outcome, that’s a great way to do it because now you’ve gone a long way towards addressing outcome uncertainty.
Outside of that, you can do things like offer guarantees. Everybody immediately thinks of a money back guarantee or whatever, but there is middle ground on guarantees that you can do that won’t necessarily break the bank or destroy your company if your outcome isn’t perfect. You just maybe promise to do something else until the objective is met. There are different ways of offering guarantees, but that is a way to, if a person’s like, “Oh no, what if I don’t get this right? Is my job at risk?” That uncertainty will cause them to stall or they’ll, “Oh, wow, are we really going to do this? That’s a big risk for me if we don’t get it right.” You want to shift instead of trying to sell against the status quo.
An average sales guy will continue to sell the change. “Hey, you need to change, you need to change.” At some point what happens is the client’s like, “Yeah, you’re right. I believe you. I need to change. But I’m like, holy crap, what if I change and this turns out bad?” When the client starts changing the way that they ask certain questions more about the outcomes, then you need to shift your strategy. Instead of you should change, the strategy should shift to you can’t fail. Here’s why you can’t fail. Here’s the project plan. Here’s the guarantee that we’re going to get. We only get paid when you get paid. All of those things align with the clients. “Wow, okay, I get it. I’m going to get the outcome that they promised me.”
Of all the things that are probably in the book, and there’s some good stuff in there, but that’s probably the single biggest thing you could do to address when the client’s stalling because they’re not sure if they’re really going to get the result that you promised. Those are all different strategies, and there’s more in the book that you can employ that gives them that comfort like, “Okay, I think that these guys can make the delivery that they promised.”
Fred Diamond: One of the commonalities I’ve learned a long time ago with every customer in the history of the planet, especially in B2B or B2G, is that they don’t want to fail and they don’t want to make a mistake. There’s a lot of ways you talk in the book and with your answer just now on how to ensure that. Once again, the book is Unsticking Deals. I want to thank James Muir and Patti Peets for being on the show.
I want to ask you both for your final action step. You’ve given us a lot of great ideas. If you want to give us something from the book, that’s fine. If you just want to give us something on your own, you’ve given us a lot of great ideas, something actionable that the sales professionals listening to today’s Sales Game Changers Podcast should do, and don’t say go buy the book. I encourage everybody, go buy the book. You don’t need to say that, that’s already assumed, but seriously, what would be your one bit of actionable advice that they should do right now after listening to the show or reading the transcript? James, I’ll give you the final thought here since it’s your book. Patti, what is your action step that people should do right now to take their sales career to the next level?
Patti Peets: I was jotting down some of the things that I read when James asked me and you guys invited me to be on the podcast, and I do have to say this one thing, and I’m not going to say go by the book, because it’s an obvious thing. I had to go look it back up because I didn’t want to not quote his name. David Weiss is a guy that gave you a reference, wrote the acknowledgement.
James Muir: He’s brilliant.
Patti Peets: He has the saying that now is my favorite saying, and it basically said, “Mastery isn’t found in the steps of selling, but in the art of navigating.” I think this book is just the epitome of that statement. If you heard how James just answered your last question, and the way that he was saying that, it is all in the navigation of the sales process, and it is truly an art, and James is brilliant at it.
That’s why it’s hard not to say so you need to read the book. But an actionable item would be look at your pipeline and really go through every deal in your pipeline. If it’s been in that stage for more than 14 days maybe, or 21 days, you should go through that list of questions to really score yourself and be honest with yourself, and then admit this deal is stuck. Then put a plan together, follow some of those methods and techniques that James offers up, and watch what happens. You will have deals that literally unstick, and maybe not every deal, but you will have deals that get unstuck by following this process. It’s just great stuff from James once again.
Fred Diamond: James, give us a final thought here.
James Muir: Let’s do something that’s not in the book. We’ll take it out of Patti’s book. The book of Patti is be a domain expert in addition to being a sales expert. If you’re a new salesperson, what that means is you need to master your industry so well that if the person that you sell to said, “Hey, I’m going to be gone for a month, could you come in and sit in and do my job for me for a month while I’m on vacation?” If you can say you can do that, then you’ve learned enough about your industry. Until you can say that, you need to keep grinding until you understand that, because what’s going to happen is the credibility that you’ll have with clients when you’re with them will go off the charts. It’s even better if you can figure out how to do an internship.
You say, “Hey, when I did this, this is how we did it.” Then your credibility. It’s where your sales skills intersect with actual domain expertise that you’re creating real value. If you’re just an agent that can sell a thing, then you’re going to look like almost every other salesperson. But when you add your domain expertise to that, you’ve become a consultant and a trusted advisor, and that’ll put you in absolutely rarefied territory. It means, as we were talking about before we jumped on, there’s a lot of changes going on right now in the industry and in the world. That means you got to keep current on all the new stuff that’s happening in your industry day after day after day. Even once you get to a level of competence operationally, you have to keep up to date on what’s happening in the industry so you can tie it back to how the customer’s either going to avoid a pitfall, or they can benefit from what might be happening.
That would be my single biggest thing, and everybody knows this, but you’d be surprised how many salespeople don’t ever get past the fact that they can sell a widget instead of trying to help a customer get an outcome. If you understand your domain, you can sell to both halves of that equation, and that will raise your credibility off the charts. I have witnessed Patti do that time and time again with clients to where they’re at the end, they’re just doing a discovery. They’re like, “Man, how do I do business with you?” Because I want to work with somebody who’s got it on the ball the same way that she does.
Fred Diamond: We talk about that all the time on the Sales Game Changers Podcast, that for sales professionals to have any chance of success now, you need not just the domain expertise, which I agree you need to, but you need to be thinking a couple steps ahead on how you can be helping their customers get to where they need to get to. You could go type into ChatGPT, “What products do I need?” Or, “What technology should I bring in?” Do I need a sales rep if I could just type that in? I’m going to get a good answer within 10 seconds. But what the sales professionals need to bring now, the ones who have any chance of existing in this industry, is going to be how you can help the customer two, three steps down the road. That is definitely the challenges that they need to be solved.
Once again, I want to thank James Muir. I want to thank Patti Peets for the great insights as well. My name is Fred Diamond. This is the Sales Game Changers Podcast.
Transcribed by Mariana Badillo