Subscribe to the Podcast now on Apple Podcasts!
Become a member of the elite Institute for Excellence in Sales and watch hundreds of replays!
[EDITOR’S NOTE: This is a replay of the Women in Sales Webinar sponsored by the Institute for Excellence in Sales on March 23, 2021. It featured sales leaders Jennifer Ives of 3Pillar Global and Denise Hayman of Expel.]
Register for the IES Women in Sales Leadership Forum here.
Find Jennifer on LinkedIn here. Find Denise on LinkedIn here.
DENISE’S TIP FOR EMERGING SALES LEADERS: “One of the traits that we’re honing in on from a sales perspective is really ensuring that people that join the team on the sale side understand resilience. That’s an overused word right now but it is the, “Can you deal with hardship and just keep going?” Persistence has largely led us through the year. We got through the year on our backs as a company with persistence and resilience, so ensuring that people that join the company – because I don’t think it’s over, there are more challenges ahead – always be growing, persistence and resilience.”
JENNIFER’S TIP FOR EMERGING SALES LEADERS: “As leaders, it’s critical that we make space for people to feel comfortable. And if you’re not at a company where your leader is doing that, then it is on you. You must take control of your own career and you must take control of your personal confidence and your ability. Really understand your worth and your value. Life is very short. If you’re not happy, you can start looking around. The job market is a wonderful place right now in technology and across other industries, so it’s about knowing your worth. Know your worth, don’t hesitate to reach out to people who you think might be beyond you – no one is beyond you – and really take stock of where you are, what you’re doing. If you’re not happy, if you don’t believe that a company culture matches your values, you need to find a company that does. It’s that black and white.”
Gina Stracuzzi: We’ve got a great show for you today and I’m super excited about it because it’s our one-year anniversary of doing the Women in Sales webcast which has now turned into a podcast, so you can take it on the go with you as well.
I’d like to introduce my guests, Jennifer Ives from 3Pillar Global, Jennifer was my very first guest when I started this program a year ago this month and at the time, we thought we were just going to be hanging around for a little bit. We also have on our program today Denise Hayman from Expel.
We’ll get started with you, Jennifer, thank you for being here a year ago and again today.
Jennifer Ives: It’s such a pleasure. Thank you, Gina.
Gina Stracuzzi: Let’s talk a little bit about what has changed for you over the year.
Jennifer Ives: In particular something that we talked about a year ago and it’s really made a difference, and something that I think about often not only for me but for my teams. It’s to be really respectful of personal boundaries, what’s changed is that I actually mark off times on my calendar where I eat, when I go to stretch, when I move around, when I have some family time. If I have a doctor’s appointment, before COVID I would take phone calls in the car, I would take phone calls into the doctor’s office itself until the doctor came in. I have stepped away from that a little bit.
I still work very long hours and intensively, but I’m setting boundaries and it’s not just about me, it’s about my team, I encourage my team to do so. I think over the past year there are a number of things that have changed but setting boundaries and being respectful of boundaries and other people’s boundaries as well and encouraging team members to set boundaries. Let them see that I’m doing it so that they feel permission to do it as well, it’s really important.
Gina Stracuzzi: There has been so much written over especially the last three to six months, the weight of everything on all of us and this no-boundaries approach to life, people are taking meetings and sending emails until well into the night. The boundaries slipped away somewhere along the line and the impact of that, because now so often it seems like companies almost expect it. Giving your employees that permission by example is extraordinary and kudos to you.
Denise, you were a guest on the webcast at one point as well. Talk to us a little bit about what has changed for you over the year.
Denise Hayman: So many things. I think there are first of all a lot of learnings. If I look back at 2020 and I’m having a hard time doing that because I’m normally a look-forward person, so definitely at some point want to talk about looking forward and what that means, what did we take from what we learned and what we are going to do with it. Last year for us, we had a great year despite it all.
We had one quiet quarter where we did a lot of pivoting around what needed to change in terms of what was interesting to our customers, what things needed to change for them. At the same time, as Jennifer was talking about, paying attention to self-care because if we don’t take care of ourselves as leaders, it’s really hard for us to take care of our employees.
I would say I wasn’t as good as that as I could have been, I got myself earlier this year to a place where I was definitely in a burnout place, burnout might be too strong a word but I definitely needed a break. I didn’t pay enough attention to my own advice in taking enough of those breaks that Jennifer was talking about, it’s a change that I’ve made since I realized I got myself into that.
I think that’s for everyone, getting those walks, scheduling time, for me scheduling 45 minutes for a meeting instead of a full hour, scheduling half-hour meetings if need be, do we really need to do a meeting on Zoom or can we do it asynchronously? It’s questioning everything about how this is going to help us be better.
Gina Stracuzzi: The way we came at it in the early months was with this mindset that this is a very temporary thing, so there wasn’t as much thought put into, “What should I be doing and how can I be learning from this? What examples am I setting necessarily for my employees?” It all just seemed almost a little bit fun because it was different, and it gave us a little more freedom and a little more time with our families.
But a year in, if we haven’t learned lessons and we will get to your point, Denise, what we take away from this and where we go with it. As you mentioned earlier, Jennifer, your office is going now to a coworking space and I know that’s the same for my husband and several other people that I’ve spoken to. This idea of offices and everybody meets in the kitchenette once in a while kind of thing I think is something of the past.
Now we’re going to have a hybrid and we’re going to have to learn from that so what are we going to do with that? As you have made these changes, Jennifer, and learned different things, what have you learned about yourself throughout the year?
Jennifer Ives: Probably as Denise mentioned, I’m similar. I am great at sharing with other people what I think would be healthy for them like, “I’m giving you permission to do this, I’m giving you permission to turn off your camera, I’m giving you permission to set boundaries, I’m giving you permission to please take a long weekend and turn things off. Do not feel like you have to be answering emails. If you’re off, say I am away with family or I’m just out of the office, whatever you want to say to set those boundaries and then do it.”
Like Denise, I have a harder time doing so and following my own advice and with COVID, there was a little bit of – like you said, burnout might be too strong of a word as Denise mentioned as well. But it was that moment of, “I need to be following what I’m sharing with my team and what I’m sharing with my peers, I need to do the same.” It was a reverse-mentoring moment with actually one of our UX designers who’s in his mid-20s.
One day we were talking and I said, “I have back-to-back meetings” and I was just laughing about it like it’s just crazy and he said, “Don’t you every 90 minutes take 15 minutes to look away from the screen, to stand up?” It was this wonderful reverse-mentoring moment and I said, “No, I don’t.” He’s like, “How do you get through the day? [Laughs] in that moment he taught me, he was saying as a UX designer, as a programmer, I focus for 90 minutes and then I take 15 to 20 minutes. I’m going to need to get up, walk around, go walk the dog, go get a glass of water, move my eyes from the screen.
It was just that wonderful moment and again, there’s a lot of reverse-mentoring that goes on in life. That’s what I’ve put into place because I found it difficult but as I mentioned, setting boundaries, being flexible and adaptable. Denise mentioned it too, setting 25-minute meetings instead of 30, setting 45-minute meetings instead of 60. I really hold those sacred and I do have time in the day that I mark on my calendar in a different color and when people see that color, they know that I can’t really shift that time.
It’s not a lot, I’m not taking hours, this is just 15 minutes here and 15 minutes there but to really hold to the boundaries that I’m setting and wanting team members to do the same, knowing that it’s healthy for them to do the same.
Gina Stracuzzi: How about you, Denise? Have you learned any big lessons about yourself throughout this year?
Denise Hayman: We’re going to be very similar here in terms of our advice, but stepping back, I have an external executive coach that I work with and one of his big things that he pushed was, “You have to take control of your calendar.” If you don’t have energy at the end of the day, for the afternoon or for the important meeting that you have at 3 o’clock, you’re not good to anyone. Taking an active participation on what happens every week in your calendar. I sit and go through it religiously.
I’m not perfect at it, I’m still working on that 90 minutes and then break. Actually, there’s a great energy project article about this in HBR that talks about that and I so believe in that, I just haven’t been able to quite get there yet. The whole idea of organizing and directing your own calendar because as leaders, people need us. Totally get that, but we have to be careful about not giving away too much of ourselves at the same time.
Gina Stracuzzi: Let’s shift that conversation now to what you’d like to see happen in the next three, six, nine months maybe. We’re crawling out of this, we still have a long way to go but there is that proverbial light at the end of the tunnel. Denise, let’s stick with you for a minute and let’s talk about what you see as the way forward and what you would like to see stick from what we’ve just been through, and what you’re ready to do away with and move onto something else.
Denise Hayman: It’s the beginning of spring and what happens in the beginning of spring is typically, at least I know I do, growing up you go through a spring cleaning. I think it’s a habitual thing that we do, we do it around the house, we plant flowers, all kinds of things to spruce up what’s around us. I’ve been thinking about it in those same terms around what is it from 2020 that we’re going to need to continue, and what things are we going to give away, go to Goodwill, don’t need anymore?
There’s a couple of key things that I’ve been thinking about around this which is I don’t think that it’s going to get back to what it was before. I think it’s intellectually dishonest to think that, I think it’s going to be different still so preparing for what we think it will be and being ready for it. Personally, I think everything is still going to be at the very least hybrid, at least from a sales perspective you think we’re going to do a bunch of face-to-face.
I’m not imaging companies right now are going to let a whole bunch of people that they don’t know, haven’t interacted with, come to do a meeting at their company. I think there’s going to be still a lot of Zoom and I think we need to be prepared for that, it’s going to be different, but it’ll be hybrid, it won’t go back to where it was.
Gina Stracuzzi: Jennifer, what are your thoughts on that?
Jennifer Ives: I love that idea of spring cleaning. I agree, I believe that we’re going to stay hybrid for years to come, I think this is a profound shift in all types of work, in particular selling. There’s been such a shift this year in how you’re selling, how you’re presenting yourself how you’re solving problems for both your clients as well as new folks in the market that may need what you are selling or what you have at your fingertips.
I think that we’ve learned a lot about Zoom fatigue so even with the hybrid piece I think that some companies that have had a culture of always-on, meaning always having the camera on, I think there’s going to be and I would continue to recommend a little bit of a shift in that. There are so many studies this year that have shown the wear and tear that it takes on you physically and emotionally to be on camera all the time that’s above and beyond what it requires when you’re talking with someone on the phone.
I do believe that some phone calls shifted to Zoom that didn’t need to, so I think we’re going to go back to a little bit of more over the phone. I think we’re going to see more in-person ramping back up to that but probably not at all in the same way that we saw before which is hard, because I’m a people person. I like to be with people, I like to feed up the energy of other people but it’s really important to stay healthy, it’s really important to keep other people healthy and to continue to take COVID and other issues seriously.
There are some things that we’re going to keep and there are some things that are going to move on out. I believe that something that we’ll keep, I hope, I’m an authentic person. It’s an overused word but what you see is what you get, I believe that there is space in the world for everyone. I believe one of the silver linings of COVID is that we’ve seen more people dig into their true selves or authentic selves and lean into leading with empathy.
I wish it were at a higher number, I’m not saying it’s everyone and every company, but I believe that some people who may have not realized it in the past, COVID really showed them the opportunity to be more authentic. Lead with empathy, understand where your teams are coming from, try to support them in various ways, try to put yourself in their shoes as well as your clients and again, those in the market that may be needing your services. Understand where they are, what their industry is going through, how they might react to it. I love that spring cleaning, that visual was fantastic, Denise.
Gina Stracuzzi: What you have both said is a nice segue into what I would like to talk about next, and that is changes you’ve witnessed in your teams and your concerns for them. You’ve alluded to some of this, Jennifer, in that you’ve given your team permission to step away and take breaks, but some people have been truly struggling. What openings do you give them or how do you try to help them?
Then let’s talk about especially the impact of all this on working women, working moms, because that has been a big concern for everyone in leadership. There is a huge impact and I’d like to know what you’ve seen with your own teams and how you’ve addressed it, and what you think we could do better moving forward. Denise, do you want to go first with that?
Denise Hayman: There’s no question that this has been watershed moment for women that are in business and trying to juggle home life, taking kids through educational situations and a job which is a lot of times a full-time job. I have total empathy for it, I am a wife and a mom, my kids are both a little bit older so we’re dealing with different things but I’m not having to personally deal with – I can’t imagine a kindergartener or first grader or younger student trying to figure out how to do a Zoom and keep someone occupied. It’s just hard.
The elements of what we’ve done at Expel are a lot around really giving people the space to do what they need to do. Do you need to go part-time? Do you need to share your responsibilities? Just be this face to open up and be clear about what’s going to be most helpful because you don’t want people to feel like the only option they have is to leave. There absolutely are ways to manage this, be caring about it and at the same time, have people not feel like they’re burdening someone else.
That, I think, is the guilt that we as women bring to the world at times because it’s hard for us to have someone else do something that we want to be doing. I think it’s acknowledging all of that and really giving space for that. Expel’s done a fabulous job of that not just in the sales team but across the board with recognizing that and being really open to it.
We’ve had – I’m sure, Jennifer, it’s the same for you – almost a third of our employees now start since COVID, so we have a third of the people that haven’t been to the office, that haven’t met their boss. I have a couple on my team that report directly to me that I’ve never met, it’s just opening up the conversation to be open to, “What’s going on with you?” Starting every conversation with, “Are you okay? Anything that we need to talk about before we get into business?” Making sure that that’s a clear opportunity for people to enter the space with you.
Jennifer Ives: I start numerous meetings, especially one-on-ones or two-on-ones with simply, “How are you doing today?” Especially one-on-one, you’d be surprised at what that one little question can open and the space it can open for someone to hear that question and be able to respond back. “I’m doing fine” or not, “I’m really struggling, I didn’t sleep well last night.” “I didn’t either, tell me a little bit about that, you’re not alone.” It’s that empathetic, “I get it, tell me a little bit about that, what’s going on?”
It can be a five-minute conversation and sometimes it might be your full 25 minutes with that person and that’s okay. I’ve gotten to the end of conversations with teammates and they’ve said, “I’m so sorry we didn’t get to what we needed to talk about.” I said, “It doesn’t matter, I’m going to find another time with you, we needed to talk about what we talked about today. I need to know how you’re doing and I’m so thankful and grateful that you opened up to me.”
Using those kinds of words with your teams goes so far because it’s true, I’m grateful that they believe that they could talk to me about their little one who was up last night or is crawling on their lap. For them to hear a leader say, “It’s okay, let me see her this morning, look at that, she’s adorable. Does she have some Cheerios?” Or the dog barking in the background, it doesn’t matter, it’s okay but sometimes it’s important to take that full time with them and say, “We’re going to reschedule the business piece of what we need to discuss, we’ll reschedule that for another time. I’ll get time on your schedule later today or tomorrow, it’s okay. I need to know how you’re doing.”
Sometimes it’s because I’m concerned, I’ve seen something and I will say, “I’m seeing that you look tired, I’m seeing that you’re not as active in meetings, is everything okay?” Sometimes if you give someone that little opening of the door, they’ll tell you and then you can work on it together, you can figure out together what’s going on and how you can help him or her.
I find especially with working moms, working dads too, and this is something that we started doing at the beginning of COVID and we continue it, “Your little one, are they on two naps a day or one nap a day? Because we can change our weekly meeting. If 10 a.m. on a Tuesday doesn’t work anymore for you because your little one moved to one nap a day and they’re awake at 10 and they go to bed from 1 to 3, let’s move our one-on-one to 1:00 o’clock, 2:00 o’clock. You let me know.”
It’s that flexibility as being a leader and then empowering and asking the question, “How are you doing?” and making some offers. Sometimes team members don’t know what to do but if you make some offers, if you suggest some ideas, they will quite often not only take you up on it but then that gets them thinking, it opens the door. I bet Denise has some really good thoughts on that as well.
Denise Hayman: For sure, Jennifer, we’ve done a lot of the same things not surprisingly. The other thing, our CEO Dave Merkel, he starts every one of our executive meetings with a, “How’s everybody doing?” and just stops until people start talking. Sometimes, the quiet is difficult but you have to give enough room for people to feel comfortable to step into it and really talk about, “How are you doing? How are your teams doing? Who do we need to make sure we take care of this week? Who needs a special reach-out, who’s having difficult times?” As an executive team going back out and making sure that we’re being caring, it sets that example for everyone.
Jennifer Ives: Sometimes that quiet is so telling, sometimes that quiet goes on a little too long and that’s telling for the executive in the room. If no one’s willing to talk in the moment, I’m going to need to do some one-on-ones and figure out because I just uncovered things are going on. I love that and we often start some of our executive meetings that way too and definitely one-on-ones. Denise and I, I think, are very similar in how we lead and the type of a company that we both work for.
Gina Stracuzzi: Often what I hear from women that I speak with about the forum and about women in sales issues is, “I’m not feeling it from my company.” They say, “Just let us know if you need anything” but that is profoundly different than saying, “How are you doing? What do you need?” and maybe taking it to that one-on-one level because people still might not want to blast in front of the entire company, “I’m feeling completely lost, overwhelmed and scared”, whatever the words are. We’ve all felt those things over the last year so giving people the opportunity to say it where you’ve invited the conversation is so helpful. I applaud you both and you work for great companies.
What would you like to see happen for women in sales in terms of how we can progress in terms of leadership and getting leadership opportunities in this new hybrid world? One of the biggest things that women will tell us is that they still find it hard to speak up in meetings because they’re talked over, and that can be even harder in a Zoom environment. What are you doing maybe to help women in those ways? What are your plans for making sure that everybody gets a voice at the table moving forward? Denise, do you want to go first?
Denise Hayman: The simple thing is to make sure that we hold that responsibility as women executives and women in general to hand the baton to someone else that is in the meeting or to recognize when someone got spoken over and call it out. I think that’s a big deal, to make sure that people in general, not just women, and in Zoom it’s hard to find your space and find your voice.
At Expel, culture is a really big deal to us and we have a fairly active Women of Expel group and last week we actually had a whole discussion, we had a couple people share some personal stories. Not just in sales but in other roles, I think there are similar things going on in engineering, for example, similar sorts of situations. The thing that we talked about is the pieces that are unconscious. The man that we work with, and it might not be men, just in general, speaking over someone to get there, it’s more about them getting their voice heard.
How do we point that out? How do we help them see that that’s not helpful? How do we step over that and say, “As I was saying…” or, “That was a great point, let me add onto it”? Just doing role plays to allow people to have those words to not feel like, “I just got stepped on, now I can’t speak up.” To give them the re-entry opportunity, we talked a lot about that. We had I think two and a half hours of meetings on that on Friday.
Gina Stracuzzi: I like that companies are addressing those issues because as you both pointed out, we are more than likely in a hybrid world forever, probably. So we need new ways of addressing things that we’re seeing so they don’t become the practice de jure because if they’re bad practices and we allow them to happen, then we’re going to end up with a different set of issues that are holding some people back and not others. Jennifer, would you answer the same question?
Jennifer Ives: I loved Denise’s example and it’s something that I hope that listeners will take away, some of the tactical examples that we’re sharing and Denise just shared one of my favorites. “That’s an excellent point. As I was saying…” or, “That’s an excellent point, here’s another thought.” “That’s an excellent point, have we thought about it this way as well?”
Then also as leaders, making sure that when there are other quiet people in the room, to go around and say, “Jane, I haven’t heard from you during the meeting” or, “Jane, we were talking the other day in a virtual hallway, you had an idea on this.” Help pull people into the conversation that whether you know their idea or not – it might be a virtual hallway conversation that you knew and you know what his or her thoughts are – making some space for other ideas and being very intentional about it as leaders. It’s incredibly important to be intentional about making space for people, men or women.
At 3Pillar we have an organization, a piece of the company called Empower Her. That’s a space that internally and externally we work to support women moving throughout their careers and have those kinds of conversations, internal of the company and also host external conversations for the women in the DC area in all industries and moving throughout their career.
I’ll go back to making space, as leaders it’s critical that we make space. Here’s the flip side because if you’re not at a company where your leader is doing that, then it is on you, and I firmly believe in this, you must take control of your own career and you must take control of your personal confidence and your ability. If that is not happening, you may want to rethink where you are.
Really understand your worth and your value and that’s where peers come into play, that’s where mentors and sponsors come into play, that’s where the women of Expel, Empower Her, you can pick up the phone. Other women are happy to share their thoughts and ask those questions of you. In fact, are you really happy where you are? Do you know your value to that company and could that value be applied somewhere else? If you’re that unhappy, if you don’t see a change that’s going to happen in your company, life is too short.
I’m a firm believer, I lost my father when I was in my early 20s, I just lost my mother this year, life is very short. If you’re not happy and you need to know your worth and be sure of your worth, you can start looking around. The job market is a wonderful place right now in technology and across other industries, so it’s about knowing your worth, it’s about talking with peers, with mentors, with sponsors. Don’t ever hesitate, I just did it last week, I just reached out to two people and said, “Would you sponsor me? You approach X, Y and Z in a way that I would like to build and learn how to do.”
And these are huge people in the world, I sent them a note on LinkedIn, told them why I was reaching out to them, asked them, I share that example because we as women – and men too – need to understand their worth and need to know that you can ask a question and if you don’t ask, the answer’s always going to be no, you won’t know. They both responded within an hour on LinkedIn, they both responded, “Yes, absolutely, here’s my personal email address, let’s talk about this a little bit more to see if I can help you.”
Again, many times it requires talking with peers and talking with mentors, in no way did I get to that place on my own. Four years ago I may not have sent that email, today I will and it doesn’t have to do with my title, it has to do with growth I’ve gone through and many people around me who have had to point out my worth, who have done a wonderful job doing so. I have to think that Denise, she approaches things in a very similar fashion.
Know your worth, don’t hesitate to reach out to people who you think might be beyond you – no one is beyond you – and really take stock of where you are, what you’re doing. If you’re not happy, if you don’t believe that a company culture matches your values, you need to find a company that does. It’s that black and white.
Gina Stracuzzi: I appreciate you saying all that because that was actually my next question for women who aren’t feeling valued or aren’t getting the support they need in this difficult time. What would be your advice in terms of how to start looking for new work or think about what they want to do? And you answered that beautifully. Denise, do you have some last thoughts you’d like to add to this?
Denise Hayman: I would add to the finding mentor thread that Jennifer was talking about, I think women in particular are very – I know I am, Jennifer, it sounds like you are as well – happy to give back. We have a, I don’t know if I’d go so far as to call it a crisis, but we have a bit of a crisis in that there are not enough women in sales. All kinds of data talk about the fact that women have better percentage quota hitting, better engagement, better this, better that, yet we’re not attracting and keeping enough women in the sales culture.
I feel like it’s our opportunity to give back and help mentor others. I know, Gina, you’re thinking about and we’re talking about that in our advisory board, about some way that we might be able to do some mentor programs. I think that is so needed and so right time for that.
Gina Stracuzzi: One of my guests coming up is Tamara Greenspan from Oracle who’s also on the board and she’s going to be talking exactly about mentors, sponsors and where to find them if you don’t have them in your own company. Sometimes you can be in a company that you love, but there just aren’t people who are ready or willing to be mentors or sponsors, so where else can you go? That’s going to be an important program and I know that what we’re going to build with the board is going to be a really responsive, really robust mentor program that a lot of women will be able to take advantage of. I’m so looking forward to that opportunity.
We’re almost out of time, I would like you each to give us one last little piece of advice that the audience can take with them that they might put into action today to help them keep moving forward in this. Jennifer?
Jennifer Ives: We’ve talked about it, but the piece of mentorship. Find a mentor, reach out to a mentor, know your worth and don’t feel as if you can’t reverse-mentor. Look at the moment I shared with you [laughs] there are other opportunities that I’ve had that someone has reverse-mentored me in many ways. Don’t hesitate to use the reverse-mentoring and I think Denise gave some excellent examples of your voice in meetings and also your voice socially. This is an excellent time to find your voice and have that voice shared socially, you are in charge of your career, you’re in charge of your profession, you have every asset to find your voice and share it via LinkedIn, via Club House, all these different ways. I would highly encourage women, I share that with my team all the time, one-on-one. What are you doing this week to increase your professional external voice and place in then market for your entire career?
Gina Stracuzzi: Wonderful, thank you. Denise?
Denise Hayman: I don’t believe this year is going to be just like it was, so the personal accountability that every single person has is to always be growing. Things are going to change again, who knows? I hate to say it but there might be another strain of this that comes out, there could be other things that we are approached with but the question that I have, again, this is my spring cleaning thing. What did I learn? What do I think is happening? What new skills do I need to have as a component of that? What do we need in the organization that is different now than it was?
One of the traits that we’re honing in on from a sales perspective is really ensuring that people that join the team on the sale side understand resilience. That’s an overused word right now but it is the, “Can you deal with hardship and just keep going?” Then persistence, persistence is known in sales but I believe that our persistence has largely led us through the year. We got through the year on our backs as a company with persistence and resilience, so ensuring that people that join the company – because I don’t think it’s over, there are more challenges ahead – always be growing, persistence and resilience.
Gina Stracuzzi: Both of you, I can’t thank you enough. It’s been a wonderful conversation, I’m excited that you came back and celebrated with me, it’s a bummer that a year later we’re still here, Jennifer, we’re still doing these because of the pandemic but we are still standing because we are resilient and I know we’re going to do great things. Thank you, both of you ladies, you’re wonderful examples of what it means to lead with grace and dignity and positivity and I love that. Thank you and thank you to everyone that joined in with us.
Transcribed by Mariana Badillo